[lincare91]

I know that there has been a lot of questions like this and I have indeed read them all. I think that mostly people have been very discouraging. Cost of living too high, too many taxes, no jobs, too much snow, too many "flatlanders" as it is, etc.

And all of this has been helpful and I am far less inclined to move than before I found this forum.

However, my situtation is a little different so I thought I'd put it out there.

I have lived in NYC all of my life. Currently I live in the South Bronx, which is not as bad as it sounds anymore.

I have a job in downtown Manhattan ($135 k per annum), which believe me is not that much by NYC standards but I am not at the poverty level either. The problem is that I work 80 plus hours per week in absolute misery - crying myself to sleep every night out of both exhaustion and the cruel attitudes and words of co-workers. And this has been going on for years at other jobs as well as this current one. I believe that it is just the culture of New York once you get to a certain salary level. It wasn't this bad when I was low man on the totem pole but then I was constantly on the point of eviction because I couldn't pay my rent.

This stress is already affecting my health so I need to figure something else out.

So here's the rest of my situation. My son is going away to college next year and my husband (who is much older than I am) is retiring in two years. I still have twenty plus years to work.

I love Vermont. I lived for about six months in Burlington before I married but then came back to NY for graduate school.

So should we try it again when my husband retires? I would still need to work but if we sell our apartment we should have about $100 - $150 k to use to buy something else.

I know that some specific issues have been brought up on other threads. Some I am worried about, some I am not.

High Taxes - coming from NYC I am certainly used to those. I know that more liberal states have higher taxes. This is something I am willing to accept. I would be terrified to live in a low tax "red" state.

Vermonter culture vs flatlander culture - Yes I am in some ways a typical New Yorker but I am also very non-judgmental. I have no problem with hunting, even trapping if it can be done humanely. I actually like the stoic New England attitude and think that New Yorkers are too loud in general. I wouldn't even have a problem if someone had several trashed cars in their yard next to mine. Live and let live is mostly my attitude.

Cold and snow - Well the six months I lived in Burlington were the winter months so I don't think that will be a problem, although I am a bit more drawn to the southern part of the state (Brattleboro) for its more temperate weather.

Jobs - I will have to work but at this point in my life I would be happy to accept a very reduced salary as long as I can live peacefully. At this point even waiting on tables or stocking shelves in a store seems like it would be okay. But do any of those jobs go to non-natives? Even back in the late 80s in Burlington I had a problem finding work.

High Cost of Living - Also used to this. Food is very expensive in NYC. We don't have energy costs but car insurance, parking, etc. are unbelievable.

Arts - I do like the arts. A couple of times a month I like to go to the theatre or the ballet or a museum. I know that Burlington has some of this. What about Brattleboro? I like Brattleboro a bit more because it just a few hours from NYC and we could always drive down once a month or so. But I know it's not going to be anything like what is available in NY.

Hiking, outdoor activities - Love them, don't do enough of them here. A big plus for Vermont.

One last important point. My husband and I are of hispanic origin. We both speak English perfectly. In fact I feel more comfortable in English than Spanish but we do speak Spanish when we are together although certainly never when non-spanish speakers are a part of the conversation. My husband is dark skinned, often mistaken for Jamaican or African American. I am lighter and usually pass for white, perhaps Italian or Eastern European. So please be honest, how is this going to go over in Vermont?

I know we cannot live in the south or much of the west in this country.

Thanks for all of your thoughts.

[Sherylcatmom]

Originally Posted by lincare91

This stress is already affecting my health so I need to figure something else out.

This sounds scary, and if it were me and I had a chance to make a change I would. I wouldn't trade my health for anything. Living in Vermont and working hard have been the best things my husband and I have ever done for ourselves. We'll never be rich in money but we do well enough and we are happy people who love where we live. If you can move to a place that supports a healthy lifestyle and make it work for you financially, whether it's Vermont or Timbuktu, that sounds pretty good to me.

Originally Posted by lincare91

I would be terrified to live in a low tax "red" state.

I feel that way, too. I was just addressing an LGBT rights group in Miami (hardly a backwater!) and it's frightening the lack of basic rights they face in Florida, including being vulnerable for being fired from their jobs for being gay -- this is legal there, as is other blatant discrimination. For now.

Originally Posted by lincare91

Vermonter culture vs flatlander culture

This has been a non-issue for my in my 13 years in VT and 22 years in rural Northern New England. My husband says the same. I'm from SFla and he's from urban Connecticut. If anyone has ever treated us lesser for being "from away," we didn't notice. We've always been self-employed here. Eventually, when I sought salaried work, I found a job I loved. I recently researched my salary and was surprised to find it's average for national salaries for comparable positions in the nonprofit sector. And where I live is much lower-cost than most of my counterparts elsewhere in the US.

Originally Posted by lincare91

Cold and snow - Well the six months I lived in Burlington were the winter months so I don't think that will be a problem, although I am a bit more drawn to the southern part of the state (Brattleboro) for its more temperate weather.

There really is a difference! Brattleboro and Bennington really are warmer and have slightly longer growing seasons than parts to the north. As far as Vermont winters, only you and your husband can determine from your experience whether they're an issue for you. I'm from SFla and I've never once -- not once! -- wished to live somewhere warmer since moving to VT. (In fact, summers here are a bit much for me. I love the cold and heat just kills me.) Your comfort is totally subjective and no one can predict what this will be like for you.

Originally Posted by lincare91

But do any of those jobs go to non-natives? Even back in the late 80s in Burlington I had a problem finding work.

You may have a problem finding work but I'm guessing it's Vermont's always sketchy job situation versus where you're from. As far as I know, no one at any job I've applied for knew where I was from. Of course, being hooked into a local professional network (versus walking in cold) ALWAYS increases the likelihood of getting a job -- no matter where the applicant is from. I got my current job with one of the many organizations I volunteered with. So I heard about the opening early and they knew I was reliable and dedicated to the cause. That had nothing to do with where I was from.

Originally Posted by lincare91

High Cost of Living - Also used to this. Food is very expensive in NYC. We don't have energy costs but car insurance, parking, etc. are unbelievable.

I agree. I keep in close touch with friends and family around the US. No one is getting off cheap and my friends/family in NY, NJ, and SFla pay WAY more for living expenses and housing than my husband and me. While their salaries may be higher, they're not so much higher that they completely offset the higher costs of living. And these folks pay a steep price in stressful living.

Only my cousin Tulsa, OK, has a lower cost of living than I do in VT. He and his wife love the safety and affordability of Tulsa. However, the stories they tell me about the local culture make me very, very grateful to be in New England. There's not a thing wrong with Tulsa culture -- it's just not compatible with mine. And it's not my cousin's either. He's made a trade-off he's comfortable with. So have I.

Originally Posted by lincare91

Arts - I do like the arts. A couple of times a month I like to go to the theatre or the ballet or a museum. I know that Burlington has some of this. What about Brattleboro? I like Brattleboro a bit more because it just a few hours from NYC and we could always drive down once a month or so. But I know it's not going to be anything like what is available in NY.

You said it. Only you will know whether this becomes an issue for you. I've lived in NYC and Boston and I'm a native of Miami, so I'm used to culture galore. I wouldn't trade living in Vermont for any of it.

As an aside, I've just returned from from SFla where I was giving a presentation. I'd was excited to visit an international city with tons of restaurants to choose from. And I had some very good meals. But I was surprised to realize that I find Vermont restaurants more vegan-friendly, and Vermonters more vegan-aware, than the places I went in Miami. (Example: In one Miami restaurant, I said the word "vegan" and they offered me fish!!!! Of course, I explained and ordered by the ingredient but that's never happened to me in VT.) Sure, I could have gone to Sublime or one of the other (very few) SFla vegan-only restaurants, but I was dining with omnivorous family members and wanted to dine where there were choices they'd prefer, too. This is a non-issue for me in Vermont and was more challenging in SFla.

Originally Posted by lincare91

My husband is dark skinned, often mistaken for Jamaican or African American. I am lighter and usually pass for white, perhaps Italian or Eastern European. So please be honest, how is this going to go over in Vermont?

I'm guessing that in Brattleboro or Burlington, there'd be fewer issues than in more homogeneous parts of the state. I think only other people of color who live in VT can answer this. I hope someone will. For one thing, I wonder how conscious you and your husband would feel of visibly looking different than many folks around you. Maybe not much, maybe a lot.

[lincare91]

Thank you so much Sherylcatmom. That was really helpful. It sounds like you and your husband have a happy life.

I think that volunteering is a really good entry into a job. That's a great idea. I work in the non-profit sector as well and I've seen that happen too.

I also completely agree with you about food in Vermont. For a sparsely populated area, Vermont excels in the emphasis on fresh, local ingredients, the choices for vegetarians (I am one too, although my husband is not). I hate all the big chain restaurants that serve huge portions of over processed foods and am very glad that there are lots of other choices in Vermont. I will take a small locally owned cafe any time.

As far as being different goes, yes we are used to it. Once you claw your way out of the ghetto in New York you have to interact with all kinds of people, like in any big city I guess. My son goes to a high school where there are only a handful (less than 2%) of students of color.

And there is prejudice all over this world. Once we moved to an upper middle class neighborhood in New York (it was a big stretch for us but we were just renting and we thought we would try it) and someone stuck a pin in our front door lock so we couldn't get back into apartment and smashed all our car windows for no reason that we could figure out other than they wanted to send us a message that we didn't belong there.

I never had any problems in Burlington. The one thing I remember though was an aesthetic longing more than anything else. I came back to New York and spent days just wandering around the streets taking in all the different faces and styles of dress and sounds of languages. My eyes and ears were just hungry for that diversity.

Of course here in New York I long for a glimpse of sky, a twig snapping underfoot, the smell of a cold crisp morning. It's always something, isn't it?

[Sherylcatmom]

Originally Posted by lincare91

The one thing I remember though was an aesthetic longing more than anything else. I came back to New York and spent days just wandering around the streets taking in all the different faces and styles of dress and sounds of languages. My eyes and ears were just hungry for that diversity.

Of course here in New York I long for a glimpse of sky, a twig snapping underfoot, the smell of a cold crisp morning. It's always something, isn't it?

Yes, of course it is!

Just yesterday at the Ft. Lauderdale airport I was at the computer kiosk beside two women from Brazil, gorgeous, late-50-ish, with positively musical accents. We were commiserating and joking about how awful the automated systems are, and they were leaning in and touching me in the course of conversation in a way that felt perfectly natural and appropriate, but would never happen among Vermonters. Later we happened to pass each other in the concourse of the Atlanta airport and pointed, giggled, and grinned at each other.

Yet last night when my plane descended through the clouds and Boston and the islands burst into view for the first time in a weekp, I let out this great sigh of relief and everything said "HOME!" to me. Of course, when you're a Vermonter, home means 3 more hours of driving.

I'm so happy to be back in Vermont with my husband and kitties.

[arctichomesteader]

If your husband has some income from retiring it just may not be too difficult if it's reliable (you know how many people have lost their pensions from companies going under or such...). As you've gathered, jobs aren't easy...but from the sounds of that stress, I'd be looking to get out of there. Stress is dangerous. Trying to make a living here can be stressful but, nothing matching the stress I felt when I've spent time in big cities like NYC. Scientific study has actually shown cities have harmful effects on our mental health because of the stress and unnatural surroundings.

Brattleboro is smaller than Burlington. It's quite "different" than other places in the state. I don't like it, but you might. It's full of ex-NY'ers.

About race: I doubt you'll have any big problems, especially if you live in Burlington or Brattleboro. The state is quite White so in some towns maybe you'd catch a few stares but nothing hateful. I doubt even that would happen in Burlington or Brattleboro.

When it comes to flatlanders us Vermonters have said a lot but we've rarely done anything (apart from perhaps the secession movement and the opposition to Governor Dean and Kunin before him). In the NEK we had some ways of making people who came and wanted to change everything unwelcome (nothing violent of course) but don't act like you're superior and we're all dumb rednecks and need to be protected from ourselves and there wasn't a problem. I'm in central VT now and I think flatlanders and real VT'ers are about evenly numbered in most of the towns here.

[sundialstreet]

If you can live on a salary of 1/5 of your current but still pay roughly the same ratio of your income on basic necessities, you should be okay in VERMONT. Stick to the big cities in terms of your ethnic concerns or just tell people you're Italian

[lincare91]

I am glad that you think it might be possible. I intend on continuing my research and looking at any job prospects. I agree that stress is dangerous. Most of my family has suffered heart disease starting in their 40s. I don't want to join them.

Originally Posted by arctichomesteader

The state is quite White so in some towns maybe you'd catch a few stares but nothing hateful. I doubt even that would happen in Burlington or Brattleboro.

I don't mind stares. They usually just mean someone is curious and interested, or if they're hard stares perhaps that someone is a little afraid. But as I approach middle age I don't invoke much fear anymore.

Originally Posted by arctichomesteader

In the NEK we had some ways of making people who came and wanted to change everything unwelcome (nothing violent of course) but don't act like you're superior and we're all dumb rednecks and need to be protected from ourselves and there wasn't a problem.

I hope I don't ever act superior to anyone although I guess if you've seen your share of New Yorkers, New Jerseyites, etc. vacationing or with second homes in Vermont I bet you've seen more than your share of that attitude. I also don't want to turn Vermont into New York. One New York, as much as I like it, is quite enough in this country.

Also, I want to say that I really admire the self-reliance that I've seen in native Vermonters. I hope that I can learn some of that if we move.

What is the NEK?

[lincare91]

Originally Posted by sundialstreet

If you can live on a salary of 1/5 of your current but still pay roughly the same ratio of your income on basic necessities, you should be okay in VERMONT. Stick to the big cities in terms of your ethnic concerns or just tell people you're Italian

I think that 1/5 of current salary is a good thing to keep in mind. I know it will be much much lower, probably shockingly so, but if the ratio of income to basic necessities stays the same that would be okay.

Believe me I am not looking to move to live on the cheap somewhere. It's much more quality of life issues.

Thanks for the advice on the ethnic concerns. I always wanted to be Italian anyway.

[arctichomesteader]

What is the NEK?

The Northeast Kingdom. Google it if you haven't heard of it, you'll find out some interesting things...

[joe moving]

1/5 of 135 seems low. 27k??