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Old 12-10-2009, 06:29 AM
 
894 posts, read 1,287,006 times
Reputation: 259

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Interesting article: SteynOnline - THE GRAY MOUNTAIN STATE

Just something for folks to be aware of. Granted it is one opinion. YMMV. From the article:
"Last year, Chris Lafakis of Moody’s predicted Vermont would have “a really stagnant economy” not this year or this half-decade but for the next 30 years."
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Old 12-10-2009, 07:29 AM
 
159 posts, read 349,678 times
Reputation: 163
As a sixty year old that was born and lived all but a couple years of my life in Vermont I have to agree with the authors veiws, Vermont has changed so much in the past thirty years it's become the opposite of what it was once famous for...conservative, hard working, old time yankee's. Dean, Bernie, Kunin, all transplants that found tiny Vermont an easy place to enter politics and bring their socialists ideas and agenda's that appealled to the new Vermonters that came to Vermont from NY, CT and NJ. I consider myself lucky I got out just in time, my children all went to college, are smart, good people and they all left the state to find decent employment which offers a decent life. Vermont is not what it was, too many government regulations and employees which cause high taxes, the combination is deadly for attracting business. The leaders of Vermonts government should be ashamed for what they are taking from the populace and what they are giving in return. Vermont is in a death spiral that I do not see changing, each year getting worse than the last.
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Old 12-10-2009, 09:04 AM
 
Location: Vermont
10,305 posts, read 11,216,655 times
Reputation: 14181
You forgot transplants like Snelling, who put through a tax increase on the rich when we needed it in 1991, and Douglas.

It's really a shame that the people who founded Ben and Jerry's and Green Mountain Coffee Roasters moved to Vermont and created large, profitable businesses that employ a lot of people here, isn't it? Or that the president of IBM came to Vermont on vacation, loved it, and decided to put a giant IBM plant here. Or that we are burdened by so many out-of-staters studying and teaching at UVM and practicing medicine at Fletcher Allen Health Care.

Taxes are a convenient scapegoat for conservatives, but the facts do not support the claims that taxes are a significant obstacle to relocation into a state.
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Old 12-10-2009, 09:54 AM
 
1,340 posts, read 2,491,856 times
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As Vermont is in essence a high-cost ,low-wage playground for the NYC area where most of the folks you mention come from, the future of Vermont is more dependent on how the pay and bonus schedule holds up on Wall Street than anything else.
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Old 12-10-2009, 10:23 AM
 
159 posts, read 349,678 times
Reputation: 163
"Taxes are not a significant obstacle to relocation", are you talking about businesses or people. The facts speak for themselves Vermont has changed, both demographically. Would the president of IBM love the Vermont of today as much as he loved Vermont in the 50's, and Jerry moved to France years ago after making his money? I never said all transplants were bad or all natives were good, I said that politicians are coming to vermont because of it's small population making entry into politics less expensive. Sure there are examples of people coming into Vermont and doing wonderful things but lets not forget they did them for their own benefit and for every success story there are a thousand heart breaks you never hear about or forgot. Most who think vermont has changed for the better are liberals or socialists who think the states duty is to take care of everyone, and they are entitled to their opinion, but that is not what made Vermont it's reputation. The big question is, is Vermont better off today than it was thirty or fifty years ago, I say no and the business environment and job picture back that up. Vermont ranks at the bottom in per capita income and business friendliness yet at the top in taxes, reulations and teachers per student ratio, yet Vermonts population is growing older as the youth move to other states where they have better opportunities.
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Old 12-10-2009, 12:37 PM
 
6,764 posts, read 19,758,217 times
Reputation: 4688
That's why I am getting the heck out of here. I've NEVER been voluntarily unemployed this long in my working life. I've lived in NY and PA and been able to find SOMETHING. But here, nothing! Zero.

What a waste of 2 years of my life. No, I take that back. I had some good experiences. I got a dog. I got out of Long Island and saw some mountains.

Volunteered here. Tried to make a go of it. Felt like I got the **** kicked out of me thanks to having no one offer me a job despite numerous interviews for positions I was easily qualified to do.

That's about it.

And yes, I've seen more druggies around here than when I lived on Long Island.

Oh, and is it a good thing to see 70 year olds still working their retail jobs? I think not. I'm sure they'd like to retire and chill but you can't on wages here...
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Old 12-10-2009, 01:36 PM
 
Location: The Woods
16,946 posts, read 22,263,271 times
Reputation: 9051
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackmccullough View Post
You forgot transplants like Snelling, who put through a tax increase on the rich when we needed it in 1991, and Douglas.

It's really a shame that the people who founded Ben and Jerry's and Green Mountain Coffee Roasters moved to Vermont and created large, profitable businesses that employ a lot of people here, isn't it? Or that the president of IBM came to Vermont on vacation, loved it, and decided to put a giant IBM plant here. Or that we are burdened by so many out-of-staters studying and teaching at UVM and practicing medicine at Fletcher Allen Health Care.

Taxes are a convenient scapegoat for conservatives, but the facts do not support the claims that taxes are a significant obstacle to relocation into a state.
The newcomers who invaded in the 60's and 70's chased out more businesses than they ever brought in. They also made the real estate prices and taxes skyrocket. You'll find this is a sore spot with many native VT'ers like myself. They cost my family a farm of 200 years, and I could never afford to get another farm like that today (and unfortunately it had to be sold out before the prices had really skyrocketed so there wasn't much money made after all the debt owed to various businesses had been payed off)...cousins of mine lost their jobs when our small industry fled the state...Douglas has provided a bit of a check on the legislature but truthfully we need to kick most of the legislators out on their butts at the polls before we can turn the state around.

I think when Kunin let it slip her real agenda (turn the state into a park), it showed precisely what these politicians had in store for us. They're trying it in Northern Maine too, the group spearheading it wants to make it a park too. Drive the people out (first by driving out the economy, then the people directly if necessary), make it a rich people's playground...these politicians and extremist activists have been waging a war against rural Americans. They literally burned people out of their homes in Alaska under carter, and clinton did lots of nasty things to people living near federal landsa, expecially out West and against inholders.

The Take Back Vermont movement was too little too late (and I wonder how many realize it started before the Dean re-election campaign and before homosexual unions).

Snelling was a transplant but I consider him a real VT'er because he wasn't much different than us. He wasn't a communist like most of the outsiders that get referred to as flatlanders...
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Old 12-10-2009, 01:42 PM
 
Location: The Woods
16,946 posts, read 22,263,271 times
Reputation: 9051
Quote:
Originally Posted by GypsySoul22 View Post
That's why I am getting the heck out of here. I've NEVER been voluntarily unemployed this long in my working life. I've lived in NY and PA and been able to find SOMETHING. But here, nothing! Zero.

What a waste of 2 years of my life. No, I take that back. I had some good experiences. I got a dog. I got out of Long Island and saw some mountains.

Volunteered here. Tried to make a go of it. Felt like I got the **** kicked out of me thanks to having no one offer me a job despite numerous interviews for positions I was easily qualified to do.

That's about it.

And yes, I've seen more druggies around here than when I lived on Long Island.

Oh, and is it a good thing to see 70 year olds still working their retail jobs? I think not. I'm sure they'd like to retire and chill but you can't on wages here...
It's like that for many here, we truly need to fix things or abandon ship...
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Old 12-10-2009, 01:55 PM
 
Location: The Woods
16,946 posts, read 22,263,271 times
Reputation: 9051
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackmccullough View Post
You forgot transplants like Snelling, who put through a tax increase on the rich when we needed it in 1991, and Douglas.

It's really a shame that the people who founded Ben and Jerry's and Green Mountain Coffee Roasters moved to Vermont and created large, profitable businesses that employ a lot of people here, isn't it? Or that the president of IBM came to Vermont on vacation, loved it, and decided to put a giant IBM plant here. Or that we are burdened by so many out-of-staters studying and teaching at UVM and practicing medicine at Fletcher Allen Health Care.
How about all the sawmills that my family once sent logs to during bad farming years? Not one of them is left there. How about the various small industry that was all over the state, that's gone now. Even retail outlets have been leaving the state. People even block wind projects. Do you have any idea how many farms ae gone now? An incredible, shocking number in the past 20 years have gone...

IBM moved here in a very different time. They're slowly but surely on their way out of the state, layoffs after layoffs...eventually, everyone knows it, they're going...green mt. coffee is also beginning to branch out to other states, they will begin the same process.


Quote:
but the facts do not support the claims that taxes are a significant obstacle to relocation into a state.
I'd say taxes so high people are forced to sell off bits of property to pay them are an obtacle...

But you cleverly worded that. Perhaps not an obstacle to a person moving here, but living here, and for businesses to move here and operate, definately an obstacle.

Do you think the predictions by various economics experts about the future of the state's economy, are not reality? They are, I can assure you, and everyone who has looked into it knows why...
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Old 12-10-2009, 02:35 PM
 
Location: Providence, RI
986 posts, read 2,031,702 times
Reputation: 366
I hate to say it but industry has left New England in general. Vermont's problems are not unique. Businesses, especially larger corporations, prefer the south because land is cheaper.

I think a lot of this is amusing. You get people who don't want more people moving to the state because it ruins the state. You get the same people who say that no companies want to move there because of the state's taxes. What do you think will happen if a large corporation moves to VT? They'll bring jobs, but not necessarily jobs that VTers are qualified for, which means they'll bring in people from out of state, too.

What people living everywhere need to understand is that the minute someone moves to a new town or state, they are a resident and have a right to vote and push for changes that they want. The length of time someone has lived somewhere does not give someone seniority over how the place should be. The guy who has lived there for 40 years does not have more of a say than the guy who moved there this morning. You're not BOTH Vermonters and need to respect that of each other.

But back on topic, I read something the other day that the only state that will not bounce back from the recession is RI. I take all these doom and gloom articles with a grain of salt, though.
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