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Old 09-19-2015, 02:48 PM
 
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Richmond is more adult, established and civilized. It's downtown is easily 2-3 times larger than Norfolk's. The city population can easily over take Norfolk too if trends hold (we are within maybe 20K people now and Richmond is growing at a much faster rate).

Norfolk is gorgeous though and does many things better than Richmond (cohesive signage, mass transit, way better landscaping and sidewalk design/maintenance).

I really do enjoy both cities very much and have been amazed by the revitalization happening in the cities. I grew up in Tidewater and remember Norfolk in the late 70's and 80'. It was terrible. I moved to Richmond in 87 and watched the city circle the drain for 20 years. It is such a travesty that Virginians gave up on two of the most beautiful and interesting cities in the South. I'm glad we've come to appreciate what we have
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Old 09-19-2015, 11:49 PM
 
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I,ve always felt at home in Virginia too...will probably start out in Richmond (Glen Allen or Midlo) as it's very centrally located and RVA is really developing. It's the only state outside of CA that I ever felt drawn to.
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Old 09-21-2015, 07:38 AM
 
Location: Portsmouth, VA
6,514 posts, read 8,394,153 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kbank007 View Post
Which city would you consider more urban between two of the most dense cities in Virginia? I have noticed that some people refer to the city of Richmond as being more urban and dense than Norfolk, although Norfolk is listed as having a higher density. Richmond has more rowhomes in the city, while Norfolk has better urban transit options such as light rail. Both cities have older district areas (Richmond: The Fan, Monument Avenue, Church Hill. Norfolk: Ghent, Park Place, Free Mason District, Huntersville).
Statistically you can answer this. Norfolk is more urban overall, statistically. But Norfolk is land locked. Richmond has suburbs, traditional suburbs, but Norfolk's suburbs are cities like Virginia Beach and Chesapeake. So it is an oversimplification to pit Norfolk and Richmond against each other, on paper.

I prefer Norfolk. The conservative element I might not like in Richmond, is in Virginia Beach in the Norfolk metro area. There is more of everything, good and bad, in this region.

Richmond is more historical. It is more intact. Norfolk built, tore down, and rebuilt. Even Ghent, which is supposed to be the artistic community in Norfolk, feels relatively new. I'm in my forties, and I might be older than some of the construction in Ghent.

If you want legacy, move to Richmond. If you want postmodern, failed urban renewal projects, and gentrification, move to Norfolk. Plus Norfolk is a port city, a smaller Baltimore.

The more you learn about cities, the less willing you are to draw comparisons. The only thing cities like Norfolk, Alexandria, and Richmond have in common are their population. Honestly I don't care about the downtown of a city as much as I do the density of a city throughout the entire footprint. Your average citizen cannot afford to live downtown anyway.
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Old 09-21-2015, 07:57 AM
Status: ""...I wrote it down, now I follow thru..."" (set 16 days ago)
 
Location: North Raleigh x North Sacramento
5,756 posts, read 5,520,604 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goofy328 View Post
Statistically you can answer this. Norfolk is more urban overall, statistically. But Norfolk is land locked. Richmond has suburbs, traditional suburbs, but Norfolk's suburbs are cities like Virginia Beach and Chesapeake. So it is an oversimplification to pit Norfolk and Richmond against each other, on paper.

I prefer Norfolk. The conservative element I might not like in Richmond, is in Virginia Beach in the Norfolk metro area. There is more of everything, good and bad, in this region.

Richmond is more historical. It is more intact. Norfolk built, tore down, and rebuilt. Even Ghent, which is supposed to be the artistic community in Norfolk, feels relatively new. I'm in my forties, and I might be older than some of the construction in Ghent.

If you want legacy, move to Richmond. If you want postmodern, failed urban renewal projects, and gentrification, move to Norfolk. Plus Norfolk is a port city, a smaller Baltimore.

The more you learn about cities, the less willing you are to draw comparisons. The only thing cities like Norfolk, Alexandria, and Richmond have in common are their population. Honestly I don't care about the downtown of a city as much as I do the density of a city throughout the entire footprint. Your average citizen cannot afford to live downtown anyway.
Norfolk isn't more urban, though. It is denser, that is a statistical fact. In terms of amenities, pedestrian traffic, and yes, neighborhood activity, among other measures, Richmond is the more urban city. It's not even close, there is always more going on in Richmond. And Richmond has higher peak densities. For whatever it's worth (and it probably isn't worth much), Norfolk almost never feels busy. A hallmark of urbanity is busyness, and "things" going on, and Norfolk is very laid back...

Also, Richmond has more in common with Baltimore...
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Old 09-21-2015, 07:59 AM
 
Location: Portsmouth, VA
6,514 posts, read 8,394,153 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spencer114 View Post
Richmond is more adult, established and civilized. It's downtown is easily 2-3 times larger than Norfolk's. The city population can easily over take Norfolk too if trends hold (we are within maybe 20K people now and Richmond is growing at a much faster rate).

Norfolk is gorgeous though and does many things better than Richmond (cohesive signage, mass transit, way better landscaping and sidewalk design/maintenance).

I really do enjoy both cities very much and have been amazed by the revitalization happening in the cities. I grew up in Tidewater and remember Norfolk in the late 70's and 80'. It was terrible. I moved to Richmond in 87 and watched the city circle the drain for 20 years. It is such a travesty that Virginians gave up on two of the most beautiful and interesting cities in the South. I'm glad we've come to appreciate what we have
Hampton Roads is one of those areas where you spin the truth and say that it is not about downtown. And in most cases when people feel as though they're in that apologetic position the reality is that the wealth isn't being spread and there aren't enough wealthy people living or visiting downtown enough to support a large downtown. Even though Norfolk's downtown is larger than the downtown area is in the city I'm from, I think that is the issue they have.

A big part of Norfolk's dilemma is that people don't live downtown. They live around downtown. They live in Ghent, they live in Fort Norfolk, they live in Larchmont, they live in Little Creek. Cleveland Ohio was like that for decades until they got their act together, same with Detroit. There is an extreme where you have a fragmentation of the urban core, as the neighborhoods are often left to their own devices, but it does create an illusion that is better than the alternative, where neither the city or the neighborhoods are in great shape.

Richmond may be a healthier city overall, fiscally. This is generally the norm in State capitals. The city will eventually do a better job of connecting the metropolitan area through public transportation. They're probably learning from Norfolk's mistakes, and I wouldn't blame them.
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Old 09-21-2015, 08:10 AM
 
Location: Portsmouth, VA
6,514 posts, read 8,394,153 times
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Originally Posted by murksiderock View Post
Norfolk isn't more urban, though. It is denser, that is a statistical fact. In terms of amenities, pedestrian traffic, and yes, neighborhood activity, among other measures, Richmond is the more urban city. It's not even close, there is always more going on in Richmond. And Richmond has higher peak densities. For whatever it's worth (and it probably isn't worth much), Norfolk almost never feels busy. A hallmark of urbanity is busyness, and "things" going on, and Norfolk is very laid back...

Also, Richmond has more in common with Baltimore...
We're saying the same thing. Richmond is going to be busier because there are no competing urban cores. Its not like Charlottesville is part of the Richmond metro. But Norfolk does have cities that far away (as Charlottesville is from Richmond) that are in the metro. The real suburbs of Hampton Roads, not the seven cities, are that far away. And Hampton Roads, since it is not one city, has disjointed, fragmented, competing strategic growth plans. Each city is doing their own thing. In Richmond you just can actually get something done within the one urban core that you have. Or whatever urban cores exist within the metro, which are anchored by one city.

Richmond offers better continuity over a smaller footprint. And that works better for a lot of people. Your density argument would better explain why someone might prefer Baltimore to Northern Virginia. Actually, come to think about it, your argument is a really good way to explain the appeal of DC over Baltimore. Baltimore is not busy, and it is very laid back. But it is very urban. Baltimore simply cannot afford the infrastructure of DC, because who is going to use it? And that is the shape that Norfolk is in. We would not have light rail without the other six cities. Norfolk is not that big, and who would use it.

Last edited by goofy328; 09-21-2015 at 08:20 AM..
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Old 09-21-2015, 09:22 AM
 
Location: Macao
16,265 posts, read 42,989,177 times
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Norfolk is more urban and denser than Richmond?

I have been to Richmond, and found it wonderfully urban and dense. A hidden gem compared to any other city in the U.S. of a similar size.

I don't know much about Norfolk, but I keep google mapping it from this thread, and I'm just not seeing any cool urban neighborhoods like The Fan, etc. Can someone direct me to the neighborhoods in Norfolk that might be like The Fan?
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Old 09-21-2015, 10:12 AM
 
Location: Portsmouth, VA
6,514 posts, read 8,394,153 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiger Beer View Post
Norfolk is more urban and denser than Richmond?

I have been to Richmond, and found it wonderfully urban and dense. A hidden gem compared to any other city in the U.S. of a similar size.

I don't know much about Norfolk, but I keep google mapping it from this thread, and I'm just not seeing any cool urban neighborhoods like The Fan, etc. Can someone direct me to the neighborhoods in Norfolk that might be like The Fan?
The difference is slight, 300 people per square kilometer. Also, because Norfolk has 30,000 more people than Richmond. And because Richmond has 16 more square kilometers than Norfolk.

Ghent is probably the closest thing you're going to get to The Fan.

At the end of the day Norfolk is probably a poorer city than Richmond, and that demographic would not be as interested.

Right now Norfolk is trying to get more pedestrian activity downtown in order to better position itself with Richmond and Northern Virginia. That's easier said than done. There are two proposed residential high rises for Fort Norfolk which are promising, but that's not downtown. I believe that a convention center is also in the works.
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Old 09-21-2015, 10:27 AM
 
Location: Raleigh, NC
1,098 posts, read 1,535,111 times
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Ghent.
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Old 09-21-2015, 11:14 AM
Status: ""...I wrote it down, now I follow thru..."" (set 16 days ago)
 
Location: North Raleigh x North Sacramento
5,756 posts, read 5,520,604 times
Reputation: 7031
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiger Beer View Post
Norfolk is more urban and denser than Richmond?

I have been to Richmond, and found it wonderfully urban and dense. A hidden gem compared to any other city in the U.S. of a similar size.

I don't know much about Norfolk, but I keep google mapping it from this thread, and I'm just not seeing any cool urban neighborhoods like The Fan, etc. Can someone direct me to the neighborhoods in Norfolk that might be like The Fan?
There isn't one. And that isn't saying that Norfolk doesn't have relatively trendy neighborhoods. But there is no Norfolk parallel to Richmond's The Fan...Scott's Addition...Church Hill...Jackson Ward...Shockoe Bottom...Carytown...and probably a half dozen more neighborhoods in Rich. That aesthetic simply doesn't exist in Norfolk, the urban mix of retail and entertainment, the infrastructure, little cities within the city...

I would say areas like Ghent and Oceanview are more on par with Richmond's second tier neighborhoods like Manchester. Those are top-shelf neighborhoods in the city of Norfolk...

Yeah, Norfolk has had a larger population than Richmond for over 60 years, I believe. But as @spencer pointed out, Downtown Rich is far larger and Rich as a city has always felt like the bigger city. ALWAYS, at least in the 26 years I've been living. My parents had a timeshare in Williamsburg growing up, and we spent considerable time in Norfolk and the other cities on day and weekend trips. Always enjoyed myself. Hampton Roads definitely provides a different--and in many ways, better--experience than you find in Richmond, but never did you get the impression Norfolk was the larger city. I found this out when I was 16 or so, that Norfolk was "larger", and it was quite amusing to me...

As it is, the two cities are close in population, so Norfolk is only marginally larger, even by that statistic...
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