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Hmmmmm. Let's look at other cities that have neighborhoods abutting dense development that enjoy INCREASED property values based on high walkability and quick access to nearby amenities.
Bethesda
Tysons
Downtown Silver Spring
Crystal City
Alexandria
Ballston
Rosslyn
Rockville
Reston
etc. etc.
There's no argument. Times have changed. People have changed. Now the preference is to live within walking distance in or around urban centers. The D.C. area is attracting younger professionals who prefer urban settings. The generation that preferred auto-centric neighborhoods and strip malls are shrinking in numbers. NH fits the new model. Most would rather deal with traffic for 1 or 2 miles (or not at all if you can walk) than to have to deal with it for 5 or 10 trying to reach a service that is across the river or in DC.
In addition, I would LOVEEEEE for a NH-type development to locate in northern PG. Greenbelt Metro anyone? As a matter of fact, northern PG is already getting its lion's share of large developments. Konterra, East Campus, and Cafritz. I say bring it! If that means I never have to travel more than 10 miles for anything anymore, I'm all for it. It makes sense economic sense all the way around from fuel to jobs and tax revenue. If you enjoy driving long distances for everything, I guess no development is a way to go.
Studies have shown time and time again that dense upscale development deters crime. I guess if people were afraid that building anything would increase crime, nothing would get built.
How does NH transform the neighborhoods down Oxen Hill Rd? Last time I checked, where NH sits was just a hill with a salt & sand plant. Fort Washington is still residential. NH sprang up from nothing. The only thing it transformed was dirt. Oh, and that salt and sand plant. I have an uncle who lives in Ft. Washington behind NH. Still looks pretty darn residential to me. And he STILL has to drive to reach any store or service.
So, these people don't need jobs, or the tax revenue, or the ability to walk or bike to a service? The ONLY argument I hear is traffic. Unless they want their world untouched, I can't see how anyone could argue against benefit unless there are some pawn shops and fast food take outs being built in the area. I LOVE the fact that I can walk to a grocery store, bank, restaurant, UMD (to catch a performance or sport). I can bike to PG Plaza Mall, East Campus, and Cafritz, EYA Arts District, and UTC to catch a movie or some food. Who wouldn't want that walkability/bikability in their neighborhood? Shut-ins?
I disagree. Why would you spread out attractions that are meant ot be in one place? That puts more people in their cars to get from their hotels or NH to other attractions that are meant to be focused in one connected area. Why can't people walk from their hotels to the outlet center? You'd rather they have to catch a cab? Or worse, a bus?
Again, you have usable land adjacent to an urban center. The purpose is to have everything within walking distance in one central urban core? What you're suggesting is suburban sprawl.
I definitely agree with you, I am a young professional and I currently live in Southern PG county and although I like this county I find myself having to travel pretty far to shop or go out to eat. This is why I am considering buying a townhome in Wheaton or the Silver Spring area by the end of the year. I moved here a year ago and I was surprised that PG county (especially the southern end) lacked many amenities based off the county's dense population and proximity to DC.
Traffic certainly does not affect property values because many places in DC, NoVA and Montgomery county has tons of traffic and people that reside there. Traffic is going to always be an issue in the DC metro area because of all the people continuing to move here. I would love to see PG county have areas that resemble Silver Spring or Arlington one day
So, is this the excuse to oppose developments that provide walk-ability in and of themselves? The surrounding neighborhoods around Konterra won't have easy access to it but Konterra in and of itself will be a walkable community. So, because the surrounding neighborhoods won't be directly connected to Konterra, they shouldn't build it?
I'm talking about NH as an urban core, not the neighborhood around it. Before NH was built, there was nothing to walk to or within for Ft. Washington. So your argument is since we don't have any sidewalks that reach NH from Ft. Washington or Oxon Hill, let's just not build anything because the lack of sidewalks can't sustain the increase in population. That's your argument? NH at least provides a walkable node for those who chose to live and visit there.
First, it is quite presumptuous to assume that you know me and that I have somehow changed. Second, if you must know, my preference has always been to live in a walkable dense urban neighborhood. My wife LOVES Columbia, MD but to me, it is just one big neighborhood with a bunch of houses and apartments. Yes, you can walk everywhere in Columbia, but you get nowhere. Third, if you have been following smart growth and mixed-use developments like I have for the past 5-6 years, you would have read countless articles that mention the growing trend of the mixed-use/urban core developments being built in favor of sprawling auto-centric neighborhoods. Just google "Mixed-Use Trend." I know what I'm talking about when people perfer more walkable communities. That doesn't mean just sidewalks like in Columbia, MD. That means urban cores with jobs, shops, and entertainment all with a mile of the core.
Oh, I'm quite aware there are two sides to every project. Those who are for and against. I'm certainly not invalidating anyone's right to disagree with anything. This is a discussion of opposing views which should lead to ideas about improvements and compromise.
Nor was NH meant to be walkable for all of Ft. Washington and Oxen Hill and nor did I expect it to be. It is walkable for those people that visit and live within NH. That was the point.Any new development won't automatically make a neighborhood as large as Fort Washington walkable unless you build dead in the middle of the neighborhood. NH is an edge urban core for Ft. Washington. Some neighborhoods don't even have mixed-use developments that close.
If by secluded you mean closed off to a walkable grid of streets, yes. Unfortunately, that area doesn't have a network of streets conducive to accessing NH from the neighborhood. That's the unfortunate legacy of suburban auto-centric sprawl.
Some do agree with me.
Yes. I have been to the site and your point is? As there area grows and there is more infill, there is potential for that areas to be a great walkable community. Especially when mass transit is included.
Then why don't the people of Ft. Washington ask that a pedestrian path be cut from that fence to the harbor with safety lights, etc? Doesn't seem like a showstopper to me. And this certainly doesn't pertain to a casino being built there.
Traffic does NOT affect property values. Commuting distance, which can take you through traffic, does. Ask those people in Georgetown, Bethesda/Rockville, Silver Spring, or anywhere in NOVA if their property values have taken a hit due to traffic. Nope. Like I said before, people are NOT rushing to PG county because of lighter traffic. They STILL prefer high traffic areas in NOVA and Montgomery County to live. The excuse that traffic lowers property values is just not true. Distance to jobs and services lowers property values which is why the further out you live, the cheaper the real estate. I've seen the traffic coming from Ashburn, VA in the morning. I've seen the traffic coming from Fredrick, MD and Fredricksburg, VA. Yet, all those areas enjoy higher property values than PG. Why? Proximity to jobs, services, good schools, and lower crime. Traffic is certainly not the most important factor. I would argue that it is last on that list.
Taking a 30 minute walk is insane? Really? Wow! So, all those people who walk the extensive trails throughout our area are just insane people for walking more than a mile for pleasure? You assume no one will walk the 30 minutes from their hotels across Oxon Hill Rd. to the outlets. I'm sure some of the visitors would rather take a nice walk instead of paying a cab $8 to go a mile down the road. Granted there is still undeveloped land that they would initially have to walk by. But once that land is filled with either residences or businesses, the walk wouldn't be that psychologically long. Visitors walk up and down the National Mall and throughout D.C. with no problem. Have you ever walked up and down the boardwalk at the beaches? Certainly more than a mile. Why would National harbor be any different? Walking, or biking, would certainly be better than hoping in a car just to go less than a mile. but hey, that's just me. People walk up and down Arundel Mills mall for hours. lol People still walk in this world. That's the point. Building walkable communities so more people can walk. Now if the mall was 5 miles down Indian Head highway, that would certainly preclude anyone from walking to it.
I'm convinced at this point that you are just arguing just to argue. Most of the counter points you have made, don't make sense because it veers off from the original points you have made. In the post that I responded to, you suggested that the mall was a walkable distance from the hotels and that is 1000% wrong. Sure there will be people who won't mind the walking but you won't find most people who are willing to walk 1.2 miles to a mall and then walk 1.2 miles back with their hands full of shopping bags. Walking 1.2 miles to a location doesn't make a place walkable. You were making a statement as if the mall is being built at the National Harbor and that is not accurate.
Again you also tried to suggest that the neighborhood can become walkable to other areas besides the mall, but you again don't know what you are talking about because the land between the mall and the NH is used for outdoor concerts and roadways to get to the National Harbor and anything else is either neighborhoods or historic sites.
You are suggesting for people to suggest that a path be opened up to the NH from Fort Washington, but that nothing to do with the point. You originally suggested that NH will transform the neighborhoods in Fort Washington. Sure people can make suggestions, but I think people are more concerned about the traffic at this point then making it accessible to their neighborhoods. In other words, people don't want to attract more people to come to their neighborhoods.
And all of the places that you mentioned as a comparison are all urban areas. There's no comparison. They are all have high density housing, shopping, jobs, and access to major hubs of public transportation, which is why traffic is acceptable. The area we are talking about doesn't have that potential because there isn't enough land to build jobs, improve transportation or to build high density living.
I definitely agree with you, I am a young professional and I currently live in Southern PG county and although I like this county I find myself having to travel pretty far to shop or go out to eat. This is why I am considering buying a townhome in Wheaton or the Silver Spring area by the end of the year. I moved here a year ago and I was surprised that PG county (especially the southern end) lacked many amenities based off the county's dense population and proximity to DC.
Traffic certainly does not affect property values because many places in DC, NoVA and Montgomery county has tons of traffic and people that reside there. Traffic is going to always be an issue in the DC metro area because of all the people continuing to move here. I would love to see PG county have areas that resemble Silver Spring or Arlington one day
The reason southern Prince George's (let's say from roughly south of Central Ave. and east of RTE 301, although there are other areas) is rural is that much of the area is zoned low density/agricultural/green space. That isn't likely to change with PlanMD being adopted which directs growth to priority funding areas which already have infrastructure such as water/sewer, roads, schools, etc. already in place. It will likely encourage infill dvelopment, which is the whole aim of it, and property values should go up. At least that's the thinking.
The reason southern Prince George's (let's say from roughly south of Central Ave. and east of RTE 301, although there are other areas) is rural is that much of the area is zoned low density/agricultural/green space. That isn't likely to change with PlanMD being adopted which directs growth to priority funding areas which already have infrastructure such as water/sewer, roads, schools, etc. already in place. It will likely encourage infill dvelopment, which is the whole aim of it, and property values should go up. At least that's the thinking.
PlanMD is Destine to FALL APART as time goes by, MARK MY WORDS........
[quote=pgtitans;23475115]I'm convinced at this point that you are just arguing just to argue. Most of the counter points you have made, don't make sense because it veers off from the original points you have made. In the post that I responded to, you suggested that the mall was a walkable distance from the hotels and that is 1000% wrong. Sure there will be people who won't mind the walking but you won't find most people who are willing to walk 1.2 miles to a mall and then walk 1.2 miles back with their hands full of shopping bags. Walking 1.2 miles to a location doesn't make a place walkable. You were making a statement as if the mall is being built at the National Harbor and that is not accurate.
Actually 1.2 miles is walkable. Considering that the average shopper wouldn't break the bank of a visit. Walking from say the Gaylord to when the mall is going to be built is not that unconceivable. Also the mall is being built at the Harbor. On the original site map that area is identified "Riverview" so from the onset that was identied as part of the Harbor it is just not located in the center. Remember NH spans 300 acres and only a third has been completed to date so the final footprint will be significantly different than what you see today..
Again you also tried to suggest that the neighborhood can become walkable to other areas besides the mall, but you again don't know what you are talking about because the land between the mall and the NH is used for outdoor concerts and roadways to get to the National Harbor and anything else is either neighborhoods or historic sites.
Actually the African American Heritage Preservation Group feel that it can be a walkable area. They are currently putting plans in play for a heritage trail that will begin from Tanger Outlets and span to Accokeek. Now I am sure that the tours proposed for the trail won't be entirely on foot but based off the article the area closest to NH will. That said there is a belief there are efforts currently in place to increase walkability to expose visitors to the history of PG County. As for the land that is currently used for performances that is where they are proposing to build the casino. If that doesn't happened it will be slated for some other use related to the harbor since it is a part of the NH Complex. Gazette.Net: Proposed southern Prince George’s historic trail could be boon for region
I don't disagree with you on that. The question will be when.
I rather take a chance on PlanMD than the random development elsewhere causing overcrowded schools, water/sewage system incapable of handling the new development, crime, and forcing people to drive everywhere and causing traffic jams because of overcapacity and people with the "me-first" attitude and their bad driving habits. Then we have this mindset, okay....so we'll just widen the roads, encourage more stupid drivers, and build more schools, and build more ho-hum houses, rinse and repeat.
But that's another topic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanScholar
Actually 1.2 miles is walkable. Considering that the average shopper wouldn't break the bank of a visit. Walking from say the Gaylord to when the mall is going to be built is not that unconceivable. Also the mall is being built at the Harbor. On the original site map that area is identified "Riverview" so from the onset that was identied as part of the Harbor it is just not located in the center. Remember NH spans 300 acres and only a third has been completed to date so the final footprint will be significantly different than what you see today..
Do you mind posting the site map or where I can find it?
I'm convinced at this point that you are just arguing just to argue. Most of the counter points you have made, don't make sense because it veers off from the original points you have made. In the post that I responded to, you suggested that the mall was a walkable distance from the hotels and that is 1000% wrong. Sure there will be people who won't mind the walking but you won't find most people who are willing to walk 1.2 miles to a mall and then walk 1.2 miles back with their hands full of shopping bags. Walking 1.2 miles to a location doesn't make a place walkable. You were making a statement as if the mall is being built at the National Harbor and that is not accurate.
Actually, I make very valid points. 1.2 miles is very walkable. And who said that anyone who walks to the mall MUST make multiple purchases? Ever heard of window-shopping? I would imagine if a person's intention was to make the mall a day-trip, they would drive or catch a bus. I'm referring to those who are staying at NH or made the core of NH their primary visit.
Quote:
Again you also tried to suggest that the neighborhood can become walkable to other areas besides the mall, but you again don't know what you are talking about because the land between the mall and the NH is used for outdoor concerts and roadways to get to the National Harbor and anything else is either neighborhoods or historic sites.
There are plans to fill that empty space with more mixed-use, office, or residential development.
Quote:
You are suggesting for people to suggest that a path be opened up to the NH from Fort Washington, but that nothing to do with the point. You originally suggested that NH will transform the neighborhoods in Fort Washington. Sure people can make suggestions, but I think people are more concerned about the traffic at this point then making it accessible to their neighborhoods. In other words, people don't want to attract more people to come to their neighborhoods
.
Really? I've been hearing the opposite. The residents of Ft. Washington must love empty homes and businesses in their neighborhood huh? The more the better right? What municipality doesn't want people to live in their town or city? "Ft. Washington. A nice place to live. For US. So stay out! We don't want your stinkin' traffic." Great Slogan. Enjoy your empty houses and lack of services.
Quote:
And all of the places that you mentioned as a comparison are all urban areas.
That's the point. NH is built to be a dense urban core. I think you're getting hung up on the current size of NH. NH doesn't have to be the size of Tysons or Crystal City to be considered an urban core in relation to mixed-use developments. "Urban - An urban area is characterized by higher population density and vast human features in comparison to areas surrounding it." I suggest you read up on Mixed-Use and TOD developments.
Quote:
There's no comparison. They are all have high density housing, shopping, jobs, and access to major hubs of public transportation, which is why traffic is acceptable. The area we are talking about doesn't have that potential because there isn't enough land to build jobs, improve transportation or to build high density living.
On the contrary, there is a comparison. NH has a grid of walkable streets, high density housing, shopping, and jobs. Remember, a development can be dense mixed-use and not be near major hubs of public transportation. Think Tysons Corner, Reston Town Center, and all along the Dullus Toll Road - huge mixed-use developments without major public transit hubs. Developments near public transit hubs are called Transit Oriented Developments or TODs. NH is not a TOD obviously, but it can still be a dense mixed-use urban development without transportation. And there's nothing preventing the purple line or the Yellow Line from being extended to NH in the future.
lastly, and in the case of this topic, most importantly, the casino would further add to the density of NH and also provide more patrons for the outlet mall to either walk to or catch a shuttle to. Whichever they prefer. And I'm sure the two would strike up agreements such as offering coupons and shopping sprees, etc. to foster business between the two.
I rather take a chance on PlanMD than the random development elsewhere causing overcrowded schools, water/sewage system incapable of handling the new development, crime, and forcing people to drive everywhere and causing traffic jams because of overcapacity and people with the "me-first" attitude and their bad driving habits. Then we have this mindset, okay....so we'll just widen the roads, encourage more stupid drivers, and build more schools, and build more ho-hum houses, rinse and repeat.
But that's another topic.
Do you mind posting the site map or where I can find it?
Actually 1.2 miles is walkable. Considering that the average shopper wouldn't break the bank of a visit. Walking from say the Gaylord to when the mall is going to be built is not that unconceivable. Also the mall is being built at the Harbor. On the original site map that area is identified "Riverview" so from the onset that was identied as part of the Harbor it is just not located in the center. Remember NH spans 300 acres and only a third has been completed to date so the final footprint will be significantly different than what you see today..
I agree that is walkable, but not for the majority of their customers that stay at the hotel. If they wanted people to walk from their hotel to the mall, they would have put it on the site. For that purpose they will likely just have shuttles, which again doesn't necessarily make it walkable. The average shopper, especially if they plan on doing shopping, will not benefit from walking that long of a way.
The second part of your statement is wrong. I'm not sure where people are getting this idea that this mall is being built at the Harbor. It is not being built at the Harbor, it is being built on the historic Salubria site, which is why it has been so difficult for it to get this far. The land in where the mall will be located is at the corner of Oxon Hill Road and Harborview Avenue. It is going to be directly across the street from that huge high rise office building and the park and ride parking lot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanScholar
Actually the African American Heritage Preservation Group feel that it can be a walkable area. They are currently putting plans in play for a heritage trail that will begin from Tanger Outlets and span to Accokeek. Now I am sure that the tours proposed for the trail won't be entirely on foot but based off the article the area closest to NH will. That said there is a belief there are efforts currently in place to increase walkability to expose visitors to the history of PG County. As for the land that is currently used for performances that is where they are proposing to build the casino. If that doesn't happened it will be slated for some other use related to the harbor since it is a part of the NH Complex. Gazette.Net: Proposed southern Prince George’s historic trail could be boon for region
I think adelphi_sky is talking about a different kind of walkability. He is referring to a more urban setting in which people can walk to shops, restaurants and live close by.
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