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Old 01-23-2008, 04:30 PM
 
746 posts, read 612,576 times
Reputation: 135

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Tuborg, I've never disagreed with your premise on wealth. I'm merely stating that high incomes and proper fiscal responsibility give those individuals a way better chance of passing those, that have lower incomes and practice fiscal responsibility. Clearly all things being equaled the guy who makes the most a year and spends the least will be the winner. Not to mention it takes money to make money.

If I make 30k a year and can only save 2,000 a year at a 10 percent rate

vs

The guy that makes 150k a year and can save 12,000 a year at a 10 percent rate


30k guy ends up with 2,000k(1.10)^50 = $234,781

vs
150k guy ends up with 12,000k(1.10)^50 = $1,408,689

that's a difference of about

a few million

Hence arguing the point about income is just silly. No matter which way you slice it if two people are fiscally responsible the guy with the most income will win at the end of 50 years.

It all has to do with inflation and the present value of actual incomes, so if inflation is 10% then the current present value of those savings are

Present value of if 2,000k in today's dollars is 17 bucks

While the present value of 12,000k in today's dollars is 102 bucks...big difference

Last edited by truthhurts; 01-23-2008 at 04:39 PM..
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Old 01-24-2008, 12:51 AM
 
217 posts, read 686,607 times
Reputation: 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by TuborgP View Post
Remember most existing homes that in early 2006 were over valued had never been purchased at that price by anyone. New home were so two people could live in a 500K home. The one who lived there for 32years should have had theirs paid off with 100% equity. The one just purchasesd had much less and may not have had any. That was why I at one time was asking what is true wealth? Isn't it more then just current income?
I have hit upon the sentiment of this several times. Ownership vs $2500 a mortgage note.
It's similar to writing a check for the purchase price of a car at a dealership. I have done that before and it is very cool. Nothing to hang my hat on but if everyone could do it once in their lifetime you would know what I mean.
It can be argued 6 ways from Sunday but, salary is not wealth. Remove the salary and you have zero. I've had that happen to me in the past and I am glad I had payroll deductions towards 401Ks for years.

I find it disturbing that so many feel justified in turning out the impoverished with the hope they run as refugees to a nearby county which might coddle them. Sure, they can better themselves and find other than section 8 housing but is the WWII attitude of pushing Jews into mass graves an attitude to carry with you everywhere you go?

I am accused of being a liberal that feels empowered when the poor black man is beneath me - a point of view from Mr Truth - I loathe the charts, facts and figures that is his mantra. The guy doesn't even live here and thinks he knows the lay of the land and what is best for us all.
Any of us that live here know how many lanes there are on the beltway and where it changes from 95 to 495. Since he likes to delve into MOCO - What does "Surrender Dorothy" correlate with? Where is Peace Cross? Where is the PG county dog pound? What is the state road number for East-West Highway? Where is Rosaryville and what federal base does Cipriano road dead end at?
Just some of the things that are known to those that live here.
Facts and figures are like words that leave politician's mouth...we have a lot of those here as well.
If you can do something with those endless lists please do so. If not, refrain.
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Old 01-24-2008, 12:55 AM
 
415 posts, read 1,778,432 times
Reputation: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishfister View Post
Any of us that live here know how many lanes there are on the beltway and where it changes from 95 to 495. Since he likes to delve into MOCO - What does "Surrender Dorothy" correlate with? Where is Peace Cross? Where is the PG county dog pound? What is the state road number for East-West Highway? Where is Rosaryville and what federal base does Cipriano road dead end at?
Just some of the things that are known to those that live here.
Facts and figures are like words that leave politician's mouth...we have a lot of those here as well.
If you can do something with those endless lists please do so. If not, refrain.
Hey, I don't live in PG, and don't work there any more, but I know most of those things...
Do I count?
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Old 01-24-2008, 07:49 AM
 
29,465 posts, read 33,733,900 times
Reputation: 11104
Default We all really have a core agreement

Quote:
Originally Posted by fishfister View Post
I have hit upon the sentiment of this several times. Ownership vs $2500 a mortgage note.
It's similar to writing a check for the purchase price of a car at a dealership. I have done that before and it is very cool. Nothing to hang my hat on but if everyone could do it once in their lifetime you would know what I mean.
It can be argued 6 ways from Sunday but, salary is not wealth. Remove the salary and you have zero. I've had that happen to me in the past and I am glad I had payroll deductions towards 401Ks for years.

I find it disturbing that so many feel justified in turning out the impoverished with the hope they run as refugees to a nearby county which might coddle them. Sure, they can better themselves and find other than section 8 housing but is the WWII attitude of pushing Jews into mass graves an attitude to carry with you everywhere you go?

I am accused of being a liberal that feels empowered when the poor black man is beneath me - a point of view from Mr Truth - I loathe the charts, facts and figures that is his mantra. The guy doesn't even live here and thinks he knows the lay of the land and what is best for us all.
Any of us that live here know how many lanes there are on the beltway and where it changes from 95 to 495. Since he likes to delve into MOCO - What does "Surrender Dorothy" correlate with? Where is Peace Cross? Where is the PG county dog pound? What is the state road number for East-West Highway? Where is Rosaryville and what federal base does Cipriano road dead end at?
Just some of the things that are known to those that live here.
Facts and figures are like words that leave politician's mouth...we have a lot of those here as well.
If you can do something with those endless lists please do so. If not, refrain.
Most if not all of us have agreement on certain core issues. Our histories and personal values give us a different spin on topics related to the issue. You do not need to live in PG to have a voice nor do you need to live in Maryland to have a voice on PG. If any local jurisdiction uses a dollar or more of state/federal taxes then we as taxpayers have a say in how our money is spent. If you want redistribution of the wealth and taxation for the betterment of the community then we all have a say in what that betterment is and what is a legitmate use of our money. I suspect most Marylanders and Americans outside of PG would be willing to go away and not discuss the county if none of our money was going there. As we both know math is the international language and Truth speaks to the universality in all of us wth his data.
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Old 01-24-2008, 10:47 AM
 
746 posts, read 612,576 times
Reputation: 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishfister View Post
I have hit upon the sentiment of this several times. Ownership vs $2500 a mortgage note.
It's similar to writing a check for the purchase price of a car at a dealership. I have done that before and it is very cool. Nothing to hang my hat on but if everyone could do it once in their lifetime you would know what I mean.
It can be argued 6 ways from Sunday but, salary is not wealth. Remove the salary and you have zero. I've had that happen to me in the past and I am glad I had payroll deductions towards 401Ks for years.

I find it disturbing that so many feel justified in turning out the impoverished with the hope they run as refugees to a nearby county which might coddle them. Sure, they can better themselves and find other than section 8 housing but is the WWII attitude of pushing Jews into mass graves an attitude to carry with you everywhere you go?

I am accused of being a liberal that feels empowered when the poor black man is beneath me - a point of view from Mr Truth - I loathe the charts, facts and figures that is his mantra. The guy doesn't even live here and thinks he knows the lay of the land and what is best for us all.
Any of us that live here know how many lanes there are on the beltway and where it changes from 95 to 495. Since he likes to delve into MOCO - What does "Surrender Dorothy" correlate with? Where is Peace Cross? Where is the PG county dog pound? What is the state road number for East-West Highway? Where is Rosaryville and what federal base does Cipriano road dead end at?
Just some of the things that are known to those that live here.
Facts and figures are like words that leave politician's mouth...we have a lot of those here as well.
If you can do something with those endless lists please do so. If not, refrain.
I also find it a bit insulting that you are comparing the redistribution of poverty across county lines to the Holocust. If there is going to be a redistribution of anything it should poverty. No single county in this area should carry such a high burden. The Holocust comparison borders on crazy and the meglomaniac reference to Moses is beyond comical and equally as crazy.

No one is talking about a massive genocide of the people in the inner beltway. If anything I've also suggested splitting the poverty up and placing them all over the county as opposed to five or six distinct areas inside of the beltway. I think it is much more effective to spread them out than it is to leave them all in one poverty hell hole, which is what they currently live in. However, also sending them to neighboring counties and redistributing the percentage of poor people would be fair to the tax payers of Prince George's county. Funny how liberals (fishfister) seem to think the most effective way to manage the poor is to live them in their current condition and throw more money at the issue. Not hold them accountable for their behavoir or attempt to place them in places, that they can actually improve their lot in life. Fish, what do you think would be better for a poor child

1. Remain in the current poverty, high crime, poor schooling neighborhood he/she is currently in?

or

1. Have the opportunity to be rid of the "poverty mindset" and live in a more prosperous community, with better schools, more parent/teacher involvement, less crime, and a better overall opportunity?

Now i'm not saying that moving the poor into affluent neighborhoods will immediately change their family structures and make them better people, but it will open their eyes up to seeing a different quality of life, which could certainly motivate a child to want to do better. What's better waking up every day and seeing your lawyer neighbor go to work or waking up every day seeing your neighbor hanging out on a corner?

In reference to Prince George's and the poverty issue. Why should they shelter 32% of the regions poor population?

Granted the problem started in the 1960's with cheaply created garden style apartments.

I've said nothing about moving all of the poor out of the county, but I think a significant amount could be placed into other counties with higher more profitable tax bases, such as Northern Virginia (Fairfax, Prince William, and Loudoun) or Montgomery County. If they were to start rapidly destroying a lot of the garden style apartments.

Last edited by truthhurts; 01-24-2008 at 10:58 AM..
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Old 01-24-2008, 11:28 AM
 
29,465 posts, read 33,733,900 times
Reputation: 11104
Default Truth think back to your childhood experiences

Quote:
Originally Posted by truthhurts View Post
I also find it a bit insulting that you are comparing the redistribution of poverty across county lines to the Holocust. If there is going to be a redistribution of anything it should poverty. No single county in this area should carry such a high burden. The Holocust comparison borders on crazy and the meglomaniac reference to Moses is beyond comical and equally as crazy.

No one is talking about a massive genocide of the people in the inner beltway. If anything I've also suggested splitting the poverty up and placing them all over the county as opposed to five or six distinct areas inside of the beltway. I think it is much more effective to spread them out than it is to leave them all in one poverty hell hole, which is what they currently live in. However, also sending them to neighboring counties and redistributing the percentage of poor people would be fair to the tax payers of Prince George's county. Funny how liberals (fishfister) seem to think the most effective way to manage the poor is to live them in their current condition and throw more money at the issue. Not hold them accountable for their behavoir or attempt to place them in places, that they can actually improve their lot in life. Fish, what do you think would be better for a poor child

1. Remain in the current poverty, high crime, poor schooling neighborhood he/she is currently in?

or

1. Have the opportunity to be rid of the "poverty mindset" and live in a more prosperous community, with better schools, more parent/teacher involvement, less crime, and a better overall opportunity?

Now i'm not saying that moving the poor into affluent neighborhoods will immediately change their family structures and make them better people, but it will open their eyes up to seeing a different quality of life, which could certainly motivate a child to want to do better. What's better waking up every day and seeing your lawyer neighbor go to work or waking up every day seeing your neighbor hanging out on a corner?

In reference to Prince George's and the poverty issue. Why should they shelter 32% of the regions poor population?

Granted the problem started in the 1960's with cheaply created garden style apartments.

I've said nothing about moving all of the poor out of the county, but I think a significant amount could be placed into other counties with higher more profitable tax bases, such as Northern Virginia (Fairfax, Prince William, and Loudoun) or Montgomery County. If they were to start rapidly destroying a lot of the garden style apartments.
Truth thinking back to your childhood and your observations as a young people would you agree or disagree with the following:

Negative youth behavior is a dominant trait and positive youth behavior is a recessive trait.

Put a good kid with a bad kid and the bad will dominate in the overwhelming majority of circumstances. Negative peer pressure overpowers positive in schools daily. Do you really want to integrate thugs into groups of positive kids for them to spread their reign of terror, intimidation and recruitment? Do you really think that will help housing values? That is part of the housing valuation problem in suburban Maryland counties now. The spreading urban thug syndrome.
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Old 01-24-2008, 11:38 AM
 
350 posts, read 1,490,947 times
Reputation: 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by truthhurts View Post
No one is talking about a massive genocide of the people in the inner beltway. If anything I've also suggested splitting the poverty up and placing them all over the county as opposed to five or six distinct areas inside of the beltway. I think it is much more effective to spread them out than it is to leave them all in one poverty hell hole, which is what they currently live in. However, also sending them to neighboring counties and redistributing the percentage of poor people would be fair to the tax payers of Prince George's county.
Just to get this straight- are you suggesting that the government should take the poor of PG County out of their homes and place them where they see fit, including other counties??? Sorry, but that's absurd. For one thing, moving people from their homes to manipulate the percentage of poor people in any given county is just plain wrong. Also, the tax payers of PG County chose to live in PG County- for better or worse, and the poor in certain areas come with it.
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Old 01-24-2008, 12:08 PM
 
1,389 posts, read 5,675,980 times
Reputation: 286
Quote:
Originally Posted by jessy0780 View Post
Just to get this straight- are you suggesting that the government should take the poor of PG County out of their homes and place them where they see fit, including other counties??? Sorry, but that's absurd. For one thing, moving people from their homes to manipulate the percentage of poor people in any given county is just plain wrong. Also, the tax payers of PG County chose to live in PG County- for better or worse, and the poor in certain areas come with it.

Its not obsurd,other counties have been doing this for yrs including DC. Remember when Dc was majority poor,where are the poors now? Montgomery is well known for moving poors out and increasing the county with more Affulent families. So Pg county is not the first to do something like this. NOVA is also known for doing this as well. Its called increasing property tax,bringing in higher commercial development. The county is not moving taking the lower income familes out of their house. The county is not requesting them to move. The county is just increasing its standard. The county is getting rid of the criminals and the crimes out of the county. Its about time PG County government clean up the crimes and shipping the crimes out of the county.


People are confused because I see plenty of post where people have problems with the crimes in Pg county but when the county is doing their best fixing the issues. People post No the county should leave the crimes in Pg county an dnot do anything but yet those same people are the ones complaining about the crimes in Pg county. Well I say get rid of all the criminals and crimes out of Pg county. The ones who have issues with Pg county getting rid of the crimes and criminals out of the county are the ones who do not live in the county and do not want the crimes or criminals in their community.
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Old 01-24-2008, 12:35 PM
 
144 posts, read 580,493 times
Reputation: 43
Truthhurts

I agree with your assessment. I stated this previously. Surrounding jurisdictions were smart in scattering their poor.

Unfortunately during the build-out of the inner aspect of the county low income rental units was a priority for those who could not afford to live in the District. Poverty on top of poverty breeds more poverty.

The powers that be in PG County know this and are in the process of bringing housing for middle income individuals as indicated in the various links on other threads as well as remove a great deal of the garden apartment along the inner aspect of the county.

Laurelengineer posted this previously demonstrating the decrease in the affordable housing units in the county and surrounding jurisdictions:

Tenants Push Against the Tide - washingtonpost.com

Some of these individuals are decent, honest, hard working individual who are not lazy and I do hope if they are affected they will be placed in a better predicament.
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Old 01-24-2008, 07:22 PM
 
746 posts, read 612,576 times
Reputation: 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by jessy0780 View Post
Just to get this straight- are you suggesting that the government should take the poor of PG County out of their homes and place them where they see fit, including other counties??? Sorry, but that's absurd. For one thing, moving people from their homes to manipulate the percentage of poor people in any given county is just plain wrong. Also, the tax payers of PG County chose to live in PG County- for better or worse, and the poor in certain areas come with it.

Yes, i think in modern day terms they call it "revitalization." You know where a group of builders come in buy up land and build very expensive condo buildings etc. Yuppies move in and the price of property goes up, which due to taxes forces some of the problem causing home owners out, but also raises rents, which forces a lot of the really bad crime starting residents out. To help the effect and keep some of them in the county i've offerd and suggested perhaps maybe doing this but moving them into newer communities. Not in large amounts maybe 1-2% of a new community could be poverty individuals.

Anyway Turborg, to answer your question earlier. Yes, I know what you mean and typically most residents in those communities would hate to live with these individuals, but i'm not saying place a lot of them in this neighborhoods i'm saying make them a very small percentage of each othe neighborhoods. The majority rule would still be families with two parent households and I highly doubt those children would be that influenced by the ghetto thugs if the ghetto thugs are highly outnumberd. My guess is that poor poverty kids that move into the neighborhood would pick up more of their upper class bretherns values and shun there more unsuccessful thug values to fit in.

The problem that you state in Prince George's County school and many urban schools is that thug culture is the majority. What i'm saying is dice the thug's up and place them into little pockets where they're outnumberd by law abiding citizens, that will police them, and put them in check. You're more likely to remain law abiding if not only the cops, but your entire neighborhood is watching your every action. Before some bleeding heart Lib or ACLU says "But, you're making them feel bad and they feel like everyone is out to get them." My response GOOD, that's the way you should feel until you stop thinking like a thug and criminal and become a well respected citizen of the community.

While you might have a very valid point for teenagers that move to these areas the benefit for children under the age of 5 is well worth the effort. I'd highly believe when exposed to two family environments and children, that are well mannerd and respectful this will rub off on them at an early age, so they'll probably be less likely to engage in "thug culture" when they're in their teen years. They'll probably be preppy to fit in with their surroundings.

I guess I just believe that most of the poor aren't really all that bad, but there's a bad bunch that tend to ruin it for all of them.

I guess the question would be what to do with families that have teenagers as I agree they'd sour those neighborhoods. Well, i'm not totally sure what to do with the teens. I wouldn't want a poor family with teenagers moving into my neighborhood as especially if they had teenage boys. Why? Well, most teenage boys committ a lot of property crime, so Turb, i think you have a valid point in that respect.

Perhaps the poorer parents with teenagers would be the families we attempt to "move" (relocate) out of the county as their children are probably most likely the one's causing the majority of problems.


On a side note i'd also push for more of the unincorporated areas become towns or cities. I only say this in reference to the school system. A town setting forces a closer community bond and also forces parents to become more active within the school. Also people have more say with their children going to school in a town of 10,000 people as they pay taxes to run the school and they will most certainly hold the school system more accountable. Clearly this benefits towns that are wealthier, but that's where federal and state funding could come in and make up the difference for poorer communities.

Last edited by truthhurts; 01-24-2008 at 07:36 PM..
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