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Old 01-30-2008, 10:35 AM
 
Location: Metro DC area
4,541 posts, read 3,525,407 times
Reputation: 1286

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TuborgP View Post
You must have never heard of peer pressure and the whole negative pressure to not act white. Do a google search on negative peer pressure and the challenge that motivated African American young people face. The documentation and discussions are plentiful. Just ask Cosby and Toussaint. I find it incredible that you are not familiar with Gangsta Rap as a music genre. Crips and Bloods are not Thug Culture? Don't snitch isn't Thug Culture?

Thug Culture - Google Search

Your questioning of my statement leaves me in awe but then at this point very little suprises me. However to suggest I am ignorant of reality is really quite laughable if you only knew. But then you won't.

As far as my scenario being far fetched you must not talk to many parents of Black teens who are successful and wanting to keep their kids on track.
negative black peer pressure - Google Search
Remembe it's 12:00 do you know where your children are? Who they are with?

shaker heights black student achievement - Google Search

Sorry but my ignorance is born of experience, reading and having a clue.

Our difference is not one of ignorance on either part but one of different perspective and choices.
Clearly I am not alone in my opinion as you need only study real estate and home values and see that there are many who share that perspective. Clearly here, there and every where the percentage of free and reduced meal students in a given school impacts home values. Please don't call those folks ignorant because they have a different perspective then you. Please feel free to associate and live your life as you wish and allow others to do the same. That is enlightment.
I have noted your links, but still don't find how you would connect that to the concept that integrating lower-income (black) students in school systems in wealthier areas will create an atmosphere of degeneration and "thuggery". Isn't that a bit paranoid and extreme? What does peer pressure among young African Americans have to do with integrating them into schools that are wealthier (and predominately white)?
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Old 01-30-2008, 10:37 AM
 
Location: Metro DC area
4,541 posts, read 3,525,407 times
Reputation: 1286
Quote:
Originally Posted by TuborgP View Post
As they accomplish the things you mention they no longer are poor. That is upward mobility and that is and should be the goal. Out of poverty and into the middle class and higher. Many of us came from poverty and into a much better economic status. Once educated you are removed from uneducated classification.
You missed the intent of my post. It was to support the idea that not all Blacks living in the inner Beltway are poor and uneducated. Some have progressed, yet choose to stay in the area out of connections, roots, etc.
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Old 01-30-2008, 11:26 AM
 
Location: Metro DC area
4,541 posts, read 3,525,407 times
Reputation: 1286
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaded View Post
You know ChocLot, you've made some very valid points. Do you think that a lot of today's affluent AAs find themselves "lost" in the overall affluency of the well-known AAs in society?

I mean, think about this. There are more affluent AAs that are very well known by all cultures, internationally, then ever before. Most television shows are now multicultural, interracial relationships on the screen are not taboo anymore. So in a sense, America has been desensitized to some images of AAs. For example, I can remember in my childhood there were very, very few commercials that featured AAs, especially in a positive way. Now, I'm not that "shocked" when one comes on. It's just that much more common.

So, I think when there are debates and discussions on these forums about wealth and class, it has to do with the fact that many newly wealthy AAs who are not in the "lime light" or who cannot attain the same free publicity like Denzel and Oprah, about their wealth, that they feel, I don't know, ignored; lost; invisible, maybe?

If they weren't so arrogant with their wealth and material things as to abase those who are less fortunate, then I wouldn't feel this way, but the fact that they are, tells me that they may feel slighted by that of the larger, growing wealth of more publicly known AAs.

It seems that there is an essential need for some, especially on some of these forums, to clearly separate themselves from those AAs they feel are poor, embarrassing and inferior to them. It is at times a twisted form of intraracism and self-hate, IMO.

What are your thoughts?
Jaded,

I agree with your post. For some "successful" AA's on this board, there is this overwhelming need to separate themselves from the "undesirables". A clear assertion that "I live in (insert outer beltway city/community) and I'm wealthy". What I've come to learn is that those who speak loudly of their wealth, often times, have very little.

I think it's very sad that some AA's find it necessary to put out the light in less fortunate Blacks in order to make theirs shine brighter. Progressing is always a good thing...unfortunately, some equate this to becoming snobby and bourgeois.

While I can agree that, as one is able, they should move wherever they want, I don't agree with the immediate attitude of looking down upon those who aren't able to move out of their circumstances.

So, Jaded, I'm with you. :-)
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Old 01-30-2008, 01:24 PM
 
29,464 posts, read 33,728,825 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChocLot View Post
I have noted your links, but still don't find how you would connect that to the concept that integrating lower-income (black) students in school systems in wealthier areas will create an atmosphere of degeneration and "thuggery". Isn't that a bit paranoid and extreme? What does peer pressure among young African Americans have to do with integrating them into schools that are wealthier (and predominately white)?
African American youth are often in a constant struggle for any number of reasons. Yes some of it is racism and some of it is a lack of family support and some of it is becauseof social pressures etc. We both know the issue of acting white if you do what you should be doing in school. Believe me I know that most poor families want the same thing for their children that all good parents want. Pivotal to this argument is how and why folks leave less advantaged neighborhoods to move to more advantaged neighborhoods. When parents work personally toward putting their kids in a more advantaged school environment they support that school. When they make the decision to commute further for shopping and work they support that school. It is when through government policy folks are relocated it is often not because they buy into the change but because they were booted out of their residence. That happened in Baltimore and elsewhere when housing projects were torn down and not replaced. I say again there is more agreement in here then there is disagreement. There are more good people in any neighborhood however we both know the extent of negative intimidation in some.
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Old 01-30-2008, 01:29 PM
 
29,464 posts, read 33,728,825 times
Reputation: 11093
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChocLot View Post
I have noted your links, but still don't find how you would connect that to the concept that integrating lower-income (black) students in school systems in wealthier areas will create an atmosphere of degeneration and "thuggery". Isn't that a bit paranoid and extreme? What does peer pressure among young African Americans have to do with integrating them into schools that are wealthier (and predominately white)?
Unfortunately African American youth in wealthy and mostly white schools can be especially vulnerable to peer pressure. Thats why I posted the Shaker Heights link. Are they less Black because they are affluent? Are they sell outs? Will they be accused of being ------ if their politics are different. Will they be expected to conform to the standard Black politics etc?
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Old 01-30-2008, 04:31 PM
 
746 posts, read 612,378 times
Reputation: 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by TuborgP View Post
Unfortunately African American youth in wealthy and mostly white schools can be especially vulnerable to peer pressure. Thats why I posted the Shaker Heights link. Are they less Black because they are affluent? Are they sell outs? Will they be accused of being ------ if their politics are different. Will they be expected to conform to the standard Black politics etc?

Tuborg, great job of bringing up the Ogbu research on Shacker Heights. Oddly enough i have the book sitting near my computer lol, but i digress.

I did have a few problems with his research. First, he only collected data on the black students and he considerd 50,000 dollars at the time to be affluent. Also note, that only 30% of the black families made more than 50,000 dollars, so while he stated they were "affluent black families" most of these families were clearly not. They were mostly working class.

Now, the problem I have is he did not examine the white families. He should have done research on both grops to see if there were grade differentials within economic classes of whites and how large those were. He should have also taken the time to track and follow the whites. Were certain economic classes of whites studying more than the overall whtie population etc. All of these comparisons would have been good to know. This would have made the comparison much better and even more valid.

Now on to why this was still great research work. He pointed out the main reason these kids were failing had to do with dare i say THE PARENTS! These same parents that were complaining about their childrens failed grades were also not taking the time to have the children study more and implementing proper study habits in the home. These children were not failing because they were black in an all white school district, but because the parent involvement was basically not remotely on par when compared to the white parental involvement. However, like i said had Ogubu done better research we could have compared the black/white thing pound for pound.

He did point out there were several other factors once the children were at school that played a role. There were peer perssures, that initially started out in the home and manifested themselves in the school. Again the same parents that complained about how "racist" the school was also expected this same school district to educated its children without much of their involvement. Also there was a culture that was anti educational and viewed it as acting white, which is sadly to say in some black communities very common. There were also lowered expectation placed on the black students by the teachers. All of which could have been eliminated by higher expectations placed on the students by more actively involved parents.

The other thing i'll point out is that i'm almost 100% sure that the few black families that had upper class kids performed equally as well as the white children, because not all the black children were failing. This is why his research leaves so much to be desired. But overall yes there was a problem with "acting white" etc.....I wish he would have studied the black children that were succeeding and compared them to the ones that were failing i'm sure the biggest component would have been parental involvement, studying habits, and amount of time spent studying. Funny that regardless of race most kids that have those components going for them seem to do very well in school.

Last edited by truthhurts; 01-30-2008 at 04:58 PM..
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Old 01-30-2008, 04:49 PM
 
217 posts, read 686,568 times
Reputation: 98
Is it a common thought that all of white America is rich, living in country club neighborhoods and their offspring are pressumed born with silver spoon in mouth?! The majority of white people are not wealthy. Why do so many whites - as well as blacks - live in the scattered houses you will find on the state highways across this state and ultimately, the country? Why haven't they all moved to mcmansion neighborhoods and flaunted their wealth? Could it be that they aren't wealthy?

This thought is an injustice to black and white alike. If it were true, WOW!
I wouldn't have to think about $3 gallon heating oil, would I?
I wouldn't give a second thought about the outrageous prices of PEPCO or WSSC bills.
Yep, I am white and I have to pay for those very same services. There is no pricing schedule by race that I know of. I pay for phone and satellite services as do my next door neighbors - all black.

Peer pressure is not a racial oddity. Rich kids are the worst in the world when it comes to peer pressure. Why? They have money to spend on things they needn't and their parents don't question much. They goad their friends in a manner of what can be referred to as "a good ole boys club". I saw it as a student and I have seen it as an adult.

As far as black kids and peer pressure - the nearest HS to me is Crossland.
Demographics =
Crossland's current enrollment is 2017 of which 1021 are male and 996 are female. Of the total population, .59% is American Indian, .74% is Asian, 96.38% are African American, 1.39% Caucasian, and .89% are Hispanic. Thirty five percent of the students receive free and reduced lunch.

They have a uniform policy as well.

What peer pressures they place upon themselves is no fault of the rest of the population of the school as it is virtually all black. My next door neighbor's niece was picked on for "being white" in her freshman year after she moved here from San Diego because she was an A student. She started hanging around with an older group of kids, ran away from home and who knows what else as of a year ago.

Other than "acting white" peer pressure is peer pressure. The majority will pick at the minority for not conforming to their social ideals. At Crossland it was either drugs or sex. It certainly holds true for the whitest schools in the midwestern states as kids are kids and they learn from the media.

I am lost in the "struggle" successful blacks are mired in. This may be a personal thing, I don't know.
I worked as an engineer at several prominent locations and though I saw some prejudices/racism on all facets i never saw it prevent hiring or promotions. One of my better friends at one of the projects is black. "Struggle?" There were several white guys you would have to go through to get to him. We were hired on the same day and went through many of the same tribulations. I got to know his wife and saw his kids grow over the years. He simply is a good person regardless of race. Race never was a factor with him as "BRAINS" were what we were all about. Brainpower leads way to sharing of the mind and we shared too much in common. I call him periodically to chat with him. Successful? For sure, far surpassing myself and he had never worked in that particular field before.
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Old 01-30-2008, 05:14 PM
 
746 posts, read 612,378 times
Reputation: 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChocLot View Post
Jaded,

I agree with your post. For some "successful" AA's on this board, there is this overwhelming need to separate themselves from the "undesirables". A clear assertion that "I live in (insert outer beltway city/community) and I'm wealthy". What I've come to learn is that those who speak loudly of their wealth, often times, have very little.

I think it's very sad that some AA's find it necessary to put out the light in less fortunate Blacks in order to make theirs shine brighter. Progressing is always a good thing...unfortunately, some equate this to becoming snobby and bourgeois.

While I can agree that, as one is able, they should move wherever they want, I don't agree with the immediate attitude of looking down upon those who aren't able to move out of their circumstances.

So, Jaded, I'm with you. :-)
OMG, dude, you two are way tooooo funny. Now, i'm not sure if this is directed at me mostly or Iscalder, because i could see her fitting some of these stereotypes, but i digress.

Let me ask the question how or why is it, that a well to do black cannot point out how he/she became successful? Why is it, that poor blacks can have a monopoly on complaining about how poor they are, but successful blacks should remain quite on how they became successful?

Why do you attempt to make it an us vs them? Why not attempt to make it that is how they did perhaps you could follow them?

I've pointed out in most post the reason as to why blacks are either successful and living in the upper middle class or why they're unsuccessful and poor. I've even gone as far to provide solutions to getting those poor blacks out of poverty. The least of which is complacency and complaining.

Life is really not that hard, but it can be if you make bad choices (constantly).

I guess i'm just dumbfounded by all of you, that think it is ok for blacks to be poor. I guess i'm not all that shocked that some blacks continue to support such bad behavoir and lack of morals or values and want to keep other blacks poor. It was predicted, so i'll leave you with a qoute from one of the greatest black visionaries in world.

Jaded and Choclot you fall into this category of Negro We knew your day would come

"There is a class of colored people who make a business of keeping the troubles, the wrongs and the hardships of the Negro race before the public. Having learned that they are able to make a living out of their troubles, they have grown into the settled habit of advertising their wrongs €” partly because they want sympathy, and partly because it pays. Some of these people do not want the Negro to lose his grievances, because they do not want to lose their jobs. . . . There is a certain class of race-problem solvers who don't want the patient to get well, because as long as the disease holds out they have not only an easy means of making a living, but also an easy medium through which to make themselves prominent before the public." --Booker T. Washington 1901

I fall into this category of Negro,because i clearly want to see "the patient get well" you clearly do not.

"In every part of this country I want to see my race live such high and useful lives that they will not be merely tolerated, but they shall actually be needed and wanted because of their usefulness to the community. The loafer, the man who tries to live by his wits, is never wanted anywhere." -Booker T. Washington circa 1909
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Old 01-30-2008, 08:05 PM
 
1,851 posts, read 2,911,200 times
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Arrow Fish, here's some insight on "acting white"

Fish,

There is a segment of AA's that feel speaking English correctly, desiring to continue one's education after high school, and/or actually doing well in school is synonymous with "acting white."

Unfortunately, this goes back to slavery. If you recall in the history of America, it was illegal to teach blacks to read and write. Also, they could not attend school. For many slaves, learning to read and write was not even desired for fear of their life. It was believed by them, from centuries of abuse and miseducation, that only whites deserved this "luxury."

Fast forward to the 21st Century. Just as slaves told their story orally to generations that followed, many passed on their knowledge, and stressed the importance of education, self-improvement, and self-reliance to their children, these families then continued this path and passed it on to their children; they believed in it because they benefited from doing it themselves. On the other hand, many, out of fear and ignorance (passed down through generations of family members and community leaders they trusted) did not do this. They were embarrassed at the idea that their younger generations would know more than they.

It is a sad consequence of racism and slavery. So you have grandfathers and mothers nonsupportive of progress because it is has never been realized by them. When a young man or woman comes home learning sentence structure, and begins speaking correctly, the older generation, embarrassed at being corrected or not knowing what a particular word means, condemns and belittles the younger generation, for "acting white." In some households, it is discouraged from ever believing what a "white" person says.

Yes, in this day and age, the family members and community members actually feel threatened and believe the child is mocking them by speaking and writing better, or "acting white." Another way of putting it is, "just because white people talk/act that way doesn't mean you should." Sound familiar? It is at the opposite end of the spectrum as a modern day black elitist/racist.

As I'm sure you already know, it is a fact that if a person does not learn to read and write by his or her teenage years, then they are more likely to remain illiterate well into adulthood. Not because they don't want to learn, but because his/her condition becomes increasingly embarrassing as they age. This has nothing to do with poor choices. It is merely a consequence of their situation. It is very hard to reach this population, whatever their nationality, because they "hide" in society. Some choices aren't choices at all, wouldn't you agree?


This segment, has often never experienced the benefits of learning how to speak and write English correctly, doing well in school, etc. They have no one within their immediate family or friends who has ever done this, and often times they are mocked, teased, or chastised for trying to be "smart", when in actuality it is the parent, guardian, or friend who is embarrassed that he/she does not know what they know or cannot understand them. It is a sad fact. No amount of good choices will solve this. Re-education has to be experienced at the adult level.

I can recall my parents teaching me that it was not important to "prove" to everyone what you know, to not criticize, judge or correct those who you dissagree with or know less than you; especially your elders; as an adult I now understand what they meant. You never know who your audience is. You never know their background, experiences, etc. This is why I do not subscribe to the elitist's mantra. There is a reason we all don't wear the same size shoes!

The "acting white" stigma is not exlcusive to poverty stricken families; it is however one reason the issue of poverty is more complicated then some would have us believe.

Anyway, this is probably more info than you care to read or may even already know!
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Old 01-30-2008, 08:12 PM
 
1,389 posts, read 5,675,351 times
Reputation: 286
Quote:
Originally Posted by truthhurts View Post
OMG, dude, you two are way tooooo funny. Now, i'm not sure if this is directed at me mostly or Iscalder, because i could see her fitting some of these stereotypes, but i digress.

Let me ask the question how or why is it, that a well to do black cannot point out how he/she became successful? Why is it, that poor blacks can have a monopoly on complaining about how poor they are, but successful blacks should remain quite on how they became successful?

Why do you attempt to make it an us vs them? Why not attempt to make it that is how they did perhaps you could follow them?

I've pointed out in most post the reason as to why blacks are either successful and living in the upper middle class or why they're unsuccessful and poor. I've even gone as far to provide solutions to getting those poor blacks out of poverty. The least of which is complacency and complaining.

Life is really not that hard, but it can be if you make bad choices (constantly).

I guess i'm just dumbfounded by all of you, that think it is ok for blacks to be poor. I guess i'm not all that shocked that some blacks continue to support such bad behavoir and lack of morals or values and want to keep other blacks poor. It was predicted, so i'll leave you with a qoute from one of the greatest black visionaries in world.

Jaded and Choclot you fall into this category of Negro We knew your day would come

"There is a class of colored people who make a business of keeping the troubles, the wrongs and the hardships of the Negro race before the public. Having learned that they are able to make a living out of their troubles, they have grown into the settled habit of advertising their wrongs — partly because they want sympathy, and partly because it pays. Some of these people do not want the Negro to lose his grievances, because they do not want to lose their jobs. . . . There is a certain class of race-problem solvers who don't want the patient to get well, because as long as the disease holds out they have not only an easy means of making a living, but also an easy medium through which to make themselves prominent before the public." --Booker T. Washington 1901

I fall into this category of Negro,because i clearly want to see "the patient get well" you clearly do not.

"In every part of this country I want to see my race live such high and useful lives that they will not be merely tolerated, but they shall actually be needed and wanted because of their usefulness to the community. The loafer, the man who tries to live by his wits, is never wanted anywhere." -Booker T. Washington circa 1909
Thank you truth for putting me out there. Truth I do not down grade my race. I do not call Black Children Millitant children, you do. Maybe this posting was just for you.
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