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Old 05-07-2011, 10:34 PM
 
999 posts, read 2,007,165 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluefly View Post
So, we're supposed to be shocked that a city built for the sole purpose of housing a federal government with workers coming and going from all over the world to help run or participate in the world's most powerful government isn't simultaneously the most carefree, laid back, domesticated city? We're supposed to shake our heads in dismay because people in this city work long hours and care about their careers rather than jam away in garage bands?
Bingo, Bluefly. You just supported my point about the ridiculous nature of the Washington Post article. Apparently, our professionals do not have enough leisure time to generate a "fun" and "hip" culture in DC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluefly View Post
...but my whole point is that more and more people are choosing to settle here than have in at least the last 50 years. You're just not giving it enough time.
I don't know about this. I am going with JEB on this argument. Most parents would prefer to raise their children in a HOUSE. A house with a front yard and back yard. A house where you don't have to worry about your screaming kids waking up the neighbors. Condominiums and leasing units provide tight quarters. Town houses are not ideal because of privacy concerns and little green space. Parents want the space for their children and themselves. It's just part of the American Dream.

Young parents can find plenty of houses for sale in The District. Unfortunately, real estate prices are out of reach in many desirable neighborhoods. Pretty much all real estate from Georgetown to Tenleytown in Ward 3 is prohibitively expensive for younger professional incomes. You can forget about DuPont and Logan Circle.

This leaves a few single-home and row home neighborhoods in DC that might fall within budget: Brookland, Riggs Park, Fort Totten, Takoma, Petworth and not much more. I am not factoring in neighborhoods from Wards 7 and 8 because of the high poverty and crime rates in those areas. Parents don't want to raise their kids where you see more yellow crime tape and less lemonade stands.

Parents with young children are well aware that the suburban counties (Montgomery, Fairfax, Arlington, and Loudoun Counties in particular) offer far superior public schools than what is offered through DCPS. Perhaps the parents can stay in DC and send their kids to a private school. But what happens if one parent loses a job and the private school tuition becomes financially unfeasible. If those parents lived in Fairfax or Montgomery County, they would feel reassured that they can fall back on top notch public school programs. Parents living in The District...not so much.

The bottom line is this: DC is (and always has been) ideal for single people, empty nest types, married but childless couples and short-term residents. Adding children to the household changes the dynamic because the parents will need more SPACE, more SAFETY, and excellent PUBLIC SCHOOLS. The prosperous suburbs in VA and MD can offer all three.

I think when the 2020 census is published, you will not see a big change in the number of families settling in the District.
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Old 05-07-2011, 11:23 PM
 
11,155 posts, read 15,681,234 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coldbliss View Post
Bingo, Bluefly. You just supported my point about the ridiculous nature of the Washington Post article. Apparently, our professionals do not have enough leisure time to generate a "fun" and "hip" culture in DC.



I don't know about this. I am going with JEB on this argument. Most parents would prefer to raise their children in a HOUSE. A house with a front yard and back yard. A house where you don't have to worry about your screaming kids waking up the neighbors. Condominiums and leasing units provide tight quarters. Town houses are not ideal because of privacy concerns and little green space. Parents want the space for their children and themselves. It's just part of the American Dream.

Young parents can find plenty of houses for sale in The District. Unfortunately, real estate prices are out of reach in many desirable neighborhoods. Pretty much all real estate from Georgetown to Tenleytown in Ward 3 is prohibitively expensive for younger professional incomes. You can forget about DuPont and Logan Circle.

This leaves a few single-home and row home neighborhoods in DC that might fall within budget: Brookland, Riggs Park, Fort Totten, Takoma, Petworth and not much more. I am not factoring in neighborhoods from Wards 7 and 8 because of the high poverty and crime rates in those areas. Parents don't want to raise their kids where you see more yellow crime tape and less lemonade stands.

Parents with young children are well aware that the suburban counties (Montgomery, Fairfax, Arlington, and Loudoun Counties in particular) offer far superior public schools than what is offered through DCPS. Perhaps the parents can stay in DC and send their kids to a private school. But what happens if one parent loses a job and the private school tuition becomes financially unfeasible. If those parents lived in Fairfax or Montgomery County, they would feel reassured that they can fall back on top notch public school programs. Parents living in The District...not so much.

The bottom line is this: DC is (and always has been) ideal for single people, empty nest types, married but childless couples and short-term residents. Adding children to the household changes the dynamic because the parents will need more SPACE, more SAFETY, and excellent PUBLIC SCHOOLS. The prosperous suburbs in VA and MD can offer all three.

I think when the 2020 census is published, you will not see a big change in the number of families settling in the District.
I like that yellow tape - lemonade stand line. Very clever. I'd rather have a good, stable city where people work hard and get go to good schools than a hip city, myself. Read the Post article and you'll see that the author doesn't mention the hip part. It's mentioned by an interviewee.

You're also a little older than this generation and I don't think you appreciate the shift away from the single-family home toward a more townhouse lifestyle with parks and such that's taken root. Even if people leave DC, there's no shortage of new townhomes and condos being built in the suburbs to accommodate this lifestyle demand in places with good schools. Fact is, children under 5 remained steady, which is a sign that some population of new parents pumped those numbers up while the rest of the child ages fell. Probably this demographic.

I've already said the reason for leaving is the schools, so we agree on that, not because they inherently want to leave DC. They made some good progress in reforming the schools with the last administration, but it got rejected in the last election. So, only time will tell if they continue to improve under the new director, who shares Rhee's vision if not her abrasive personality. Hope remains.

Last edited by Bluefly; 05-07-2011 at 11:32 PM..
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Old 05-08-2011, 09:12 AM
 
Location: Washington, DC
2,010 posts, read 3,452,181 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clb10 View Post
My cousin is a bass player for a Portland punk band and her day job is designing video games. She often tells me that her unconventional, creative focused lifestyle is cool but she wishes she could do something really off-the-wall and utterly fulfilling like become an advocate for some multi-billion dollar health insurance conglomerate.

I tell her to get out of Portland and go to that mecca of hipness Washington, D.C.

Sure she would have to throttle all semblance of human emotion, creativity, ingenuity and grace, but at least she would have the opportunity to stroll up and down Adams Morgan every third Saturday night.

And if she can somehow squeeze in a few hours on a weekend for herself away from the office where she puts in 75 hours a week for Aetna's "Government Relations Department", she can stand in a line for a [expletive] cupcake in Georgetown.

Hipness defined.
Protip: You may find DC to be more hip and fun if you don't spend your Saturday nights complaining on an online forum.
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Old 05-08-2011, 12:06 PM
 
5,125 posts, read 10,064,571 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluefly View Post
This is precisely why your argument confuses me. You seem to be simultaneously insulting DC for being too hip for the middle American simple life and not hip enough compared to the exotic places you lord over us simpletons for finding pleasure in what DC is (a mostly one-industry government town) rather than pining for what it isn't (a bohemian center).

I've lived in a few cities and spent time in several around the world. In the US, really only New York and Chicago are unequivocally more robust. You seem to hold DC to a higher standard, though, since major cities attract people looking for careers and they don't all settle down in Manhattan or Venice Beach when it comes time to pop some kids out. Why is that a bad thing?

I'm curious to know what neighborhoods you spend time in if you think the whole city's one big Panera. Most of my New York friends are impressed when they visit the neighborhoods. They don't expect to find as much going on here and I've never felt a lack of offerings compared to what I've found in cities much larger.

I'm not saying DC's the most interesting city around, but I think you're projecting a historical trend and not giving this new generation a chance to play itself out. These young people aren't just looking for a playground for a few years like their predecessors were.
I think you landed on my starting point, when you noted that DC is "mostly a one-industry Government town." DC is not unique in that regard, and there's nothing wrong with that. The same could be said for Ottawa, Brasilia or The Hague, and there are good and valid reasons for putting a bit of distance between a country's political and commercial centers.

That being the case, DC historically had a somewhat sleepy, and not overtly glossy, feel that reflected both its special purpose and quasi-Southern roots. For some of us who lived in the DC of that era, and now compare it to its current incarnation, it's hard to resist the conclusion conclude that DC is now actually less distinctive, and has instead become a pale imitation of some other more wealthy and interesting city. The fact that DC continues to be bankrolled, directly or indirectly, by taxpayer funds, and that those who seem to derive the most pleasure from "the new, improved DC" are increasingly newcomers in their 20s and 30s who (a) seem rather oblivious or indifferent to DC's dependence on other people's money, (b) displace long-term residents, and (c) likely won't even stay in DC once they get a bit older, can be a bit disquieting, if not depressing. The reference to Panera Bread wasn't intended to suggest that DC is completely overrun by chains, but instead that there's a certain monochromatic quality to so many places in DC now (i.e., they are overrun with so many similar career-types), compared either to what one might have encountered in DC in the past or in many other cities today.

I will frankly admit that some of this is ultimately a matter of personal preference. I like urban neighborhoods and there are some places (just to toss out a few examples, the Outremont district of Montreal, the Eixample district of Barcelona, Astoria in Queens) that almost overwhelm you from a sensory perspective because they are so interesting. But if I go to 18th Street in Adams Morgan or Logan Circle these days, I can't wait to leave, even though the quality of individual buildings is often quite impressive.

As to whether the latest crop of newcomers to DC will stay in the city and raise their families there, we'll see. Their predecessors frequently moved to DC with similar intentions and left when the urban ills of the era simply overwhelmed them. There is no reason to ascribe any different or more noble motivations to more recent arrivals to the city, but the circumstances that have changed since, say, the early 90s (lower crime in DC, combined with greater congestion and higher transportion prices in the metropolitan region) may lead them to remain in the city or its close-in suburbs for longer periods. However, the verdict is still out on this, and there's a difference between predictions by self-interested residents who would like to see their own property values in DC continue to rise and verifiable facts.

Last edited by JD984; 05-08-2011 at 01:14 PM..
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Old 05-08-2011, 05:29 PM
 
Location: Rockville, MD
3,546 posts, read 8,546,888 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEB77 View Post
The fact that DC continues to be bankrolled, directly or indirectly, by taxpayer funds, and that those who seem to derive the most pleasure from "the new, improved DC" are increasingly newcomers in their 20s and 30s who (a) seem rather oblivious or indifferent to DC's dependence on other people's money
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but it's worth noting that Manhattan's financial industry would likely have nearly completely collapsed were it not for the hundreds of billions of taxpayer dollars injected into it to keep it afloat. (It's one aspect of sanctimonious New Yorker attitude that I find most appalling.) Likewise, there are cities throughout the country with industries (aviation, energy, defense, etc.) inexorably tied to the federl government.

I would be lying if I said it didn't make me uneasy to see so much office space within and adjacent to the District tied to both government agencies, contractors and lobbyists. Part of that is simply a reflection of the fact that we are an enormous country with global responsibilities, and it takes a lot of investment and infrastructure to keep things humming. DC by its very nature is a taxpayer-funded enterprise, so it's difficult to fault it for being dependent upon taxpayer resources. Conversely, part of it also is the fact that there are entire industries that have become bloated and wasteful largely due to government largesse. It's likely unsustainable, and I do wonder what will happen to the region's economy once there is an inevitable scaling-back of government investment.

As to the urban vitality of DC's neighborhoods, it does come down to a matter of personal opinion. For me, I've traveled extensively throughout the country and abroad, and I find DC's urban ecosystem to be one of the most enjoyable to spend time in, particularly as it relates to U.S. cities. In terms of the city's size, it certainly has one of the larger contiguous, amenity-rich urban centers of any city in the country. Its commercial corridors may be increasingly homogenous, but it is also increasingly difficult to find urban neighborhoods that aren't. I find Manhattan to be a largely pleasurable urban experience, yet unique largely due to its size and density rather than to any particular only-in-Manhattan type offerings. Many neighborhoods of central Chicago exist within a similar environment, as do cities such as Boston, San Francisco and others.

I also don't think it's necessarily fair to ascribe the same tendencies to today's DC newcomers versus those of 10, 15 or 20 years ago. By your own admission, DC is a tremendously different city than it was a decade or two ago, and it's no mere coincidence that the city's population has swelled during that time. Something is attracting younger people to the city in greater numbers than ever before--most likely a combination of the re-urbanization of America in general and DC's increasingly cosmopolitan image. Whether or not they will place permanent roots within the city is an unanswered question at this time, but I personally know a number of people (myself included) who have moved into the city over the last ten years, have found it to be a pleasurable place to live, and have no intention of leaving.
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Old 05-08-2011, 05:37 PM
 
11,155 posts, read 15,681,234 times
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What both you, Jeb, and coldbliss are missing is that what is happening in DC is unprecedented in modern times. You're trying to pull the "I've been here so long I've seen it all before" card, but it's not the same as the 80s and 90s when people would endure this area for the sake of their careers and then bolt as quickly as possible (very few of them actually enduring DC itself).

DC lost population for 50 straight years - from 1950 until 2000. The fact that it not only stopped the bleeding but made a significant increase due to one demographic group suggests that the mindset has shifted. I know a lot of people who want to settle here or already have. Most others would only either go back home to their families or go to New York City to take it to the next level. There aren't many cities anymore that are more appealing for the urban lifestyle.

I think it's just a matter of taste. You have an idea in your mind that people should look and act a certain way to be deemed interesting, and DC simply doesn't offer much of that. That's fine. I find the work people do here quite fascinating and most of the individuals have interesting tastes.

Though - to be fair - DC raises its own taxes and the dependence on other people's money comes in the form of jobs that people do in service to the country, not simply handouts. I think there's a difference.

Last edited by Bluefly; 05-08-2011 at 05:45 PM..
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Old 05-08-2011, 06:19 PM
 
5,125 posts, read 10,064,571 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluefly View Post
What both you, Jeb, and coldbliss are missing is that what is happening in DC is unprecedented in modern times. You're trying to pull the "I've been here so long I've seen it all before" card, but it's not the same as the 80s and 90s when people would endure this area for the sake of their careers and then bolt as quickly as possible (very few of them actually enduring DC itself).

DC lost population for 50 straight years - from 1950 until 2000. The fact that it not only stopped the bleeding but made a significant increase due to one demographic group suggests that the mindset has shifted. I know a lot of people who want to settle here or already have. Most others would only either go back home to their families or go to New York City to take it to the next level. There aren't many cities anymore that are more appealing for the urban lifestyle.

I think it's just a matter of taste. You have an idea in your mind that people should look and act a certain way to be deemed interesting, and DC simply doesn't offer much of that. That's fine. I find the work people do here quite fascinating and most of the individuals have interesting tastes.

Though - to be fair - DC raises its own taxes and the dependence on other people's money comes in the form of jobs that people do in service to the country, not simply handouts. I think there's a difference.
That's a bit hyperbolic. I think I have a pretty good handle on the demographic trends in DC, but that doesn't mean I can't ask to see more data points before I jump on the bandwagon of those who want to proclaim there's been some monster "paradigm shift." Urban populations ebb and flow in response to a range of developments, and in recent times there have been some cities whose populations have grown, and others whose populations have declined, just as some cities have become wealthier and others have become more impoverished. Not everything that's happened recent in DC points in the same, positive direction.

To be clear, I do like DC, but I liked it better when it was more humble and less self-congratulatory. It reminds me that we used to have a local bank here that proclaimed it was "the most important bank in the most important city of the world," but guess what - that bank is now gone. A cautionary tale for the rest of us, perhaps.

Last edited by JD984; 05-08-2011 at 06:36 PM..
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Old 05-08-2011, 06:48 PM
 
11,155 posts, read 15,681,234 times
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Originally Posted by JEB77 View Post
That's a bit hyperbolic. I think I have a pretty good handle on the demographic trends in DC, but that doesn't mean I can't ask to see more data points before I jump on the bandwagon of those who want to proclaim there's been some monster "paradigm shift." Urban populations ebb and flow in response to a range of developments, and in recent times there have been some cities whose populations have grown, and others whose populations have declined, just as some cities have become wealthier and others have become more impoverished. Not everything that's happened recent in DC points in the same, positive direction.

To be clear, I do like DC, but I liked it better when it was more humble and less self-congratulatory. It reminds me that we used to have a local bank here that proclaimed it was "the most important bank in the most important city of the world," but guess what - that bank is now gone. A cautionary tale for the rest of us, perhaps.
Fair enough. Populations have increased in urban cores (if not the entire city) in every major city in the US, so the data points are there. Time will tell what comes of it.

I agree with your overall point, but I don't think having a place that people take pride in or enjoy spending time in is inherently a bad thing. I also don't know of people going around saying "DC's the greatest city in the world" (ahem...New York). People just seem to like living here with the stuff to do and the parks and the waterfronts and the jobs. I'd actually argue people are a lot quieter about the benefits of DC than a lot of less appealing cities that feel the need to booster themselves every chance they get.
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Old 05-08-2011, 06:51 PM
 
Location: North America
5,960 posts, read 5,536,363 times
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Originally Posted by KStreetQB View Post
Protip: You may find DC to be more hip and fun if you don't spend your Saturday nights complaining on an online forum.
Protip: You may find that it is impossible to find DC to be more hip and fun as it has already reached the maximum possible level of hipness and fun for any major city.
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Old 05-08-2011, 08:13 PM
 
Location: Standing outside of heaven, wating for God to come and get me.
1,382 posts, read 3,709,969 times
Reputation: 536
I actually like DC night life. Guess, I am not hip. I am not of Adams Morgan but it is growing on me. I just can't get into the drunken frat boy craze. When I was in New Orleans, I hated Bourbon but I loved the Frenchman.
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