Why not one flat rate for the entire Metro system??? (maintenance, taxes)

[dkf747]

I like it the way it is. I think it is fair now. No need to change anything. Just replace SmartTrip with something better.

[KStreetQB]

Originally Posted by Deeman804

How would they lose revenue? As long as they set it to a price that was subsidized correctly, I think that loss in old customers would be offset by the gain in far out customers.

(not trying to be combative, but just wondering)

Of course ridership would increase if you lowered the fares for a majority of riders at the same time as making it a flat rate. That's a no brainer. But like all empty political promises we're hearing during this campaign season, it's easy for someone to just say 'all we need to do is subsidize it correctly'. However, the reality of a subsidy like your suggesting, is an ugly mess.

WMATA's compact states:

the payment of all costs shall be borne by the persons using or benefiting from the Authority's facilities and services and any remaining costs shall be equitably shared among the federal, District of Columbia and participating local governments in the Zone.

A massive tax payer subsidy, to adopt a lower flat rate than the operational budget necessitates, would violate the compact. There isn't a single member of the Compact that would agree to it, because the majority of their constituents would be absolutely opposed for all of the reasons enumerated by folks in previous posts. Additionally, in this case, you're not just asking the short-distance customers to bear the burden of the subsidy, you're asking everyone.

Originally Posted by keta_mae

The entire point of metro ever buing built was to offer equal access to jobs.The current fare structure as well Rush Hour and Peak of the Peak fares don't offer equal access from all points to jobs. ......... Every trip, every time , for every passenger should be the same fare.

That is inaccurate. The point of metro was to be a part of a mass transit plan to alleviate increasing congestion. Metro has had variable and peak fares since 1977 - a flat rate was never part of the plan. The only reason they didn't have variable rates in 1976 was because there was only 4.2 miles of track. If you want to actually learn about the history of our rapid transit system, read The Great Society Subway, by Zach Schrag.

[Yiuppy]

I really hate how the discounted rate for the poorest residents in this city, who need to use public transportation the most, has been discontinued. With that said, I agree with a flat rate system. $4 round trip fare on Metrorail, within district borders only, is good for me, with continued free rail-to-bus transfer rates. $2 round trip, within four hours and inside district borders, Metrobus fare sounds fair to me; $1.25 one-way within the district.

But no. Metro is greedy and trying to keep us DC negreauxs off the system by jacking up the price every few months.

Every foreigner from the suburbs needs to pay top dollar if they want to travel into DC. I want to see them pay 12 dollars per day riding metro. 5.50 in, 6.50 out. THEY make up the BULK of commuters and traffic in this town. THEY should be the ones to carry the weight if they wanna roll in our city. AND we need to have tolls to make their asses pay up to come in by car, TOO.

[cry_havoc]

Originally Posted by Yiuppy

I really hate how the discounted rate for the poorest residents in this city, who need to use public transportation the most, has been discontinued. With that said, I agree with a flat rate system. $4 round trip fare on Metrorail, within district borders only, is good for me, with continued free rail-to-bus transfer rates. $2 round trip, within four hours and inside district borders, Metrobus fare sounds fair to me; $1.25 one-way within the district.

But no. Metro is greedy and trying to keep us DC negreauxs off the system by jacking up the price every few months.

Every foreigner from the suburbs needs to pay top dollar if they want to travel into DC. I want to see them pay 12 dollars per day riding metro. 5.50 in, 6.50 out. THEY make up the BULK of commuters and traffic in this town. THEY should be the ones to carry the weight if they wanna roll in our city. AND we need to have tolls to make their asses pay up to come in by car, TOO.

Do that and Virginia and Maryland could easily make a toll to enter their state from DC.

The only time tolls should be used is when they are part of the funding for new infrastructure, and should be disbanded when they have reached the original cost. Putting tolls on existing roads, especially between states and cities is a bad idea as it could quickly result in a form of economic warfare against states.

[Yiuppy]

Originally Posted by cry_havoc

Do that and Virginia and Maryland could easily make a toll to enter their state from DC.

The only time tolls should be used is when they are part of the funding for new infrastructure, and should be disbanded when they have reached the original cost. Putting tolls on existing roads, especially between states and cities is a bad idea as it could quickly result in a form of economic warfare against states.

As far as I'm concerned, DC is the one bearing the brunt of the economic warfare indirectly from MD and VA by requiring more infrastructure repairs and renovations due to the traffic congestion caused by their commuters, and higher cost in metro use to continue to be able to convenience riders from beyond the district who crowd and use it the most. Looks as though there's been one-way warfare onto DC for too long. And yes, we could use the money from tolling to go toward improving our infrastructure.

[checkmatechamp13]

Originally Posted by Samoi137

Certainly not the only complaint. Look at the distances. If you commuted a few miles, would you think it's fair to pay the same as someoen traveling five times the distance? Not just a matter of poor vs. rich (and there are some pretty wealthy people inside the District, though some, like in Georgetown, didn't want Metro). Rail costs more than busses to maintain, if I'm not mistaken. If you do want to push for a flat-rate, contact the Metro board. Do other systems covering equally large distances charge flat rates? I don't know. Toll roads (e.g., Dulles) charge by distance, don't they?

NYC charges $2.25 for travel within its whole system. You can travel 31 miles from Inwood, Manhattan to Far Rockaway, Queens for $2.25 on the (A) train, and can travel 38 miles to go from Wakefield, The Bronx to Far Rockaway, Queens by taking the (2) to the (A).

And you can also get a free transfer, so you can go all the way up to White Plains from Far Rockaway, which has got to be close to 50 miles, for $2.25.

If you get an Unlimited, you can make even more transfers. For $104 per month, you can go all the way from Far Rockaway out to northern Westchester (Peekskill). Of course, I highly doubt somebody is making that commute every single day.

By the way, rail costs more to maintain than buses, but the marginal costs are much lower for rail. Here in NYC, you can pay a bus driver to drive a bus with 80-120 people, whereas with a conductor and motorman, you can move 2,000 people on a train.

Originally Posted by cry_havoc

The problem with a flat rate is it is not fair in the end. What is the max and minimum now 2.75 and 1.50? Let's say they made it to 2.50. People who dont ride it very far would be paying more so people who do use it more can pay less. Let's say they made it $2.75 so now people who ride it a short distance are paying the same rate as people who use it a longer distance. Let's say it is $1 so now people who use it more are charged the same rate as people who use it less. The more people who are on a metro the more they contribute to expenses. The current system tries to correlate revenues to expenses. By charging a flat rate everyone is paying the same amount despite use. It is a fair system. Why change it to an unfair one?

If you keep the bus fare the same, people riding short distances can just use that.

Originally Posted by Arch_NME

The only argument for a simpler fare system is the cost savings in terms of fare purchasing and collecting equipment (like we could use tokens or something). However, we already have all the necessary infrastructure for variable fares. I think it would just be foolish not to use it. I mean if I'm going one stop why should I pay as much as some guy going from Greenbelt to Virginia. Also the variable rates allow us to have peak hours which can encourage or discourage metro use so it can be used to its maximum profitability and potential at all times.

Peak hour pricing can work with a flat fare as well, though.

I do agree with those that say that there shouldn't be a flat fare. The Metro is similar to our commuter rail systems in NYC. The poorest areas of the region are generally just outside the core, and as gentrification expands, that region moves out, but I doubt it would move all the way out to those suburbs of DC, meaning that the wealthy would be receiving a subsidy for their train ride.

[paytonc]

Originally Posted by Yiuppy

I agree with a flat rate system. $4 round trip fare on Metrorail, within district borders only

You do realize that the off-peak fare between most stations in the District is $1.60, right? Even going from one end to the other, Southern Ave to Friendship Heights, will cost no more than $2.75. I assume that you (a) want to get rid of peak surcharges while (b) complain that it's too crowded/infrequent -- well, you can't have your cake and eat it, too.

With SmarTrip, I don't think at all about how much my ride is going to cost. Soon, they'll have auto-reload -- in which case, how much my trip cost and how much I have left on the SmarTrip won't matter at all since it's more or less just coming out of my credit card.

Originally Posted by checkmatechamp13

NYC charges $2.25 for travel within its whole system... And you can also get a free transfer, so you can go all the way up to White Plains from Far Rockaway, which has got to be close to 50 miles, for $2.25.

The transfer is only valid for 2h. What the heck kind of NYCT service goes to White Plains? Besides, those commuting from outer neighborhoods like Riverdale (as far from Midtown as Bethesda is from the Capitol) typically take $5.50 express buses or Metro-North, not the subway.

As I said before, if NYCT had the option, they would have gone with variable fares. (The linked article mentions an off-peak discount, since that's all that their one-way turnstiles can be programmed to do.)

Here's a longer piece on why distance based fares and peak surcharges are only fair:
Human Transit: should fares be higher during peak hours?

All the arguments against mostly come down to "it's complicated, my head hurts." If that many people (in the most overeducated city on planet earth) can't figure out a danged chart, or better yet the online trip planner with its helpful fare calculator, lord help us all.

[Marv95]

Originally Posted by paytonc

The transfer is only valid for 2h. What the heck kind of NYCT service goes to White Plains?

Not MTA, but Bee Line bus service to White Plains which serves Bronx subway stations; they accept the free subway transfers. It's a long trip, but it's not impossible to make the connection in 2 hours(Far Rockaway might be strecthing it lol) and $2.25 from Queens is almost a bargain in today's world.

That said, I'd be pissed if I had to pay $2.75 to get from Union Station to the Gallery any time of the day let alone off-peak. Not everyone wants to deal with SmartTrip or transferring bus to bus when they can get there half the time.

[checkmatechamp13]

Originally Posted by paytonc

The transfer is only valid for 2h. What the heck kind of NYCT service goes to White Plains? Besides, those commuting from outer neighborhoods like Riverdale (as far from Midtown as Bethesda is from the Capitol) typically take $5.50 express buses or Metro-North, not the subway.

As I said before, if NYCT had the option, they would have gone with variable fares. (The linked article mentions an off-peak discount, since that's all that their one-way turnstiles can be programmed to do.)

Here's a longer piece on why distance based fares and peak surcharges are only fair:
Human Transit: should fares be higher during peak hours?

All the arguments against mostly come down to "it's complicated, my head hurts." If that many people (in the most overeducated city on planet earth) can't figure out a danged chart, or better yet the online trip planner with its helpful fare calculator, lord help us all.

NYCT doesn't run up to White Plains (though a few buses cross the city line, such as the Q5/Q85 going to Valley Stream in Nassau County and the Bx16 spending a few blocks in Westchester), but Bee-Line accepts the free transfers and goes pretty far north.

And people coming from Riverdale to Midtown take express buses, but they have a lower farebox recovery ratio than the subway because of their nature (heavily peaked service and long non-stop sections). Plus, since a lot of these express routes run rush hours-only (like in Far Rockaway), sometimes they have no other option.

Like I said, I agree that the DC Metro shouldn't have distance-based fares, but I don't think that it should be the case for NYC (aside from the fact that I live in the outer boroughs) due to the geographic income distribution of the city.

Originally Posted by Marv95

Not MTA, but Bee Line bus service to White Plains which serves Bronx subway stations; they accept the free subway transfers. It's a long trip, but it's not impossible to make the connection in 2 hours(Far Rockaway might be strecthing it lol) and $2.25 from Queens is almost a bargain in today's world.

And it's the same deal with LI Bus (though since they're privatizing it, we'll see how long that lasts) in Nassau County.

As far as Queens-Manhattan goes, you have to consider that because NYC's subways are so well-used, that makes it easier to offer lower fares, because the cost per rider is lower. Even with the flat rate, NYC has one of the highest farebox recovery ratios in the country.

[jujulu]

Originally Posted by HurricaneDC

Indeed. It's much harder on some dude taking the train from Branch Avenue to Farragut North than Richie Rich taking the train from Cleveland Park to Dupont.

Each fare should be calculated on a sliding scale based on that person's income, which could be stored in a database inside the fare machine.