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I'd like to see some proof to back up this statement.
Everyone actually connected to the business world knows why conventions have not been booking in D.C. including the Gaylord. That is about to change instantly and the entire business community around the nation is talking about it.
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8,128 posts, read 7,547,924 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MDAllstar
Do you really think once built, anybody will compare National Harbor with the Wharf or the Yards? The National Harbor is something you do if you want something local for the people living near it. Do people come from other places? Sure, however, the people there are mainly from a 20 mile radius. The Wharf will have a regional draw from as far north as Frederick and as far south as Fauquier county. As far east as Calvert County and as far west as Loudon County as people come into D.C. for the many things people come into D.C. for. The Wharf will also have an international draw from all the people who visit the D.C. from around the world. We are truly talking about apples and oranges. Do you compare Manhattan and New Jersey too?
Let's be honest here, you know I know more about development than anybody on this forum. Central city attraction's have a different appeal than suburban development and that goes for every city in the world. There are many people that will never go to National Harbor from all over the region. How many people will not have been to Georgetown, Penn Quarter/Gallery Place, National Mall, Capital Riverfront, Mid- City/U Street, and now SW DC when that area is completed?
When people across the region have out of town guests, how many of them will bring their guests into the city along with regional destination's outside of the city near their homes and how many will travel to places far from their homes in suburban location's? People in Montgomery County and the vicinity do bring guests to downtown Silver Spring and downtown Bethesda along with DC. People in Fairfax and Loudon counties and the vicinity do bring their guests to Tyson's Corner and DC. People in Prince George's County and the vicinity do bring their guests to National Harbor and DC. People in D.C. rarely bring their guest to places outside the city. What's the common theme with all those? Washington D.C.
You see, this has nothing to do with National Harbor being good or bad, it's just that it's not in the central part of the city. The same holds true for any world class city anywhere and their suburbs.
As for convention business, the Marriot Marquis Convention Center hotel is going to take much of that convention business back into the city. The 10 year delay from 2004-2014 for the convention center hotel really effected the market place. That will change instantly when the Marquis opens. The only conventions that will stay at the Gaylord are convention's that go to those type's of all inclusive resorts whether in North Dakota or Los Angeles. They aren't interested in leaving the grounds which is why those type of conventions can even be held in the middle of no where on a retreat resort in the woods.
But you can't quantify some of those things your speaking of. I worked at a hotel in National Harbor so I would know. People came from all 50 states plus Puerto Rico and countries across the globe to stay in National Harbor. Now of course many times DC was the focal point of their trips, but people like to get out and explore. DC or the "DC area" as a whole is an attraction in itself. DC is the epicenter of the region but visitors would always come ask about Alexandria, Baltimore or explore National harbor itself, this was before outlets and MGM of course.
How would you be able to quantify outsiders coming to the region for one specific destination vs the other? If someone in Faquier county and comes to visit a friend in Alexandria one weekend, when they arrive the friend will ask what do you want to do? If the answer is go out on the town in DC then that's fine but it's not like the person from Faquier is going to say "Oh lets go to the Southwest Waterfront and walk around, specifically." If their out and about and happen to hit that side of town and stumble upon then so be it, that's the added advantage of being in the District. Nor will that person intentionally neglect National Harbor solely because of the fact that it's not in the city proper, it's already a more established destination to begin with. No ones going to say oh I don't feel like going to NH because it's not "in a world class city," many of them don't know the difference of where the city lines end. It's just an added amenity to the region.
You are tremendously underestimating the attraction that NH for better or worse is to day, but even more so, what MGM is going to do as far as an attraction for locals and tourists. There is a good chance when it opens in 2016 this will be the best casino East of Las Vegas in the country (If not one of the best). NH should have around 3000 hotel rooms after MGM opens. The Wharf (as a single entity) cannot compare in that regard. Do you think that hurts National Harbor's case for conventions or helps it as a single development?
I don't really tout the Tanger Outlets cause I refuse to consider it really inside "the harbor" but nonentheless, the Wharf alone will not be able to compare from a retail stand point to the those outlets. I'm just giving NH the proper points it deserves in this discussion not saying it's better or worse. Remember to singularly compare the two, obviously location in DC proper is 1st preference, but NH as a single place destination can compare. National Harbor ALREADY is absolutely a destination for locals and people from outside the area, but you wait until 2016
Last edited by the resident09; 03-21-2014 at 12:41 AM..
But you can't quantify some of those things your speaking of. I worked at a hotel in National Harbor so I would know. People came from all 50 states plus Puerto Rico and countries across the globe to stay in National Harbor. Now of course many times DC was the focal point of their trips, but people like to get out and explore. DC or the "DC area" as a whole is an attraction in itself. DC is the epicenter of the region but visitors would always come ask about Alexandria, Baltimore or explore National harbor itself, this was before outlets and MGM of course.
How would you be able to quantify outsiders coming to the region for one specific destination vs the other? If someone in Faquier county and comes to visit a friend in Alexandria one weekend, when they arrive the friend will ask what do you want to do? If the answer is go out on the town in DC then that's fine but it's not like the person from Faquier is going to say "Oh lets go to the Southwest Waterfront and walk around, specifically." If their out and about and happen to hit that side of town and stumble upon then so be it, that's the added advantage of being in the District. Nor will that person intentionally neglect National Harbor solely because of the fact that it's not in the city proper, it's already a more established destination to begin with. No ones going to say oh I don't feel like going to NH because it's not "in a world class city," many of them don't know the difference of where the city lines end. It's just an added amenity to the region.
You are tremendously underestimating the attraction that NH for better or worse is to day, but even more so, what MGM is going to do as far as an attraction for locals and tourists. There is a good chance when it opens in 2016 this will be the best casino East of Las Vegas in the country (If not one of the best). NH should have around 3000 hotel rooms after MGM opens. The Wharf (as a single entity) cannot compare in that regard. Do you think that hurts National Harbor's case for conventions or helps it as a single development?
I don't really tout the Tanger Outlets cause I refuse to consider it really inside "the harbor" but nonentheless, the Wharf alone will not be able to compare from a retail stand point to the those outlets. I'm just giving NH the proper points it deserves in this discussion not saying it's better or worse. Remember to singularly compare the two, obviously location in DC proper is 1st preference, but NH as a single place destination can compare. National Harbor ALREADY is absolutely a destination for locals and people from outside the area, but you wait until 2016
I think National Harbor along with all other attractions in the suburbs are a part of the puzzle. One thing you need to realize though, the vast majority of national and international visitor's to Washington D.C. never leave the city proper. This is true for every world class city in the world. National Harbor gets tons of visitors, however, that is relative. What National Harbor counts as tons of visitors would not be tons of visitors in D.C. proper.
I guess the first thing we need to figure out is what is being asked here. I thought the OP was asking how they will compare from a visitor standpoint. National Harbor will not come close to the 24 hour/7 days a week/365 days a year foot traffic or visitor count of any attraction in D.C. That is what I mean. No suburb can come close to the visitor count of attraction's in D.C. Keep in mind, the Wharf will be the closest attraction to the National Mall. No other city proper attraction in D.C. will see more National Mall spill over. Trust me, I work in this business. I know what I'm talking about. The Wharf is connected to the SW Eco District.
See the new SW DC below connected to the National Mall:
I think National Harbor along with all other attractions in the suburbs are a part of the puzzle. One thing you need to realize though, the vast majority of national and international visitor's to Washington D.C. never leave the city proper.
I agree with this.
Quote:
What National Harbor counts as tons of visitors would not be tons of visitors in D.C. proper.
Again, I don't think we should be comparing an entire city's amenities to those of an 8 square block project. That was not my intention for this thread.
Quote:
I guess the first thing we need to figure out is what is being asked here. I thought the OP was asking how they will compare from a visitor standpoint.
Again, I was asking for thoughts on the SW Waterfront project called The Wharf and its amenities alone compared to National Harbor and its amenities alone in terms of their specific purposes to attract visitors to the waterfront.
What should not be included in this comparison:
Any non-riverfront part of DC or MD. This includes the National Mall, the museums, Georgetown, Petworth, Dupont Circle, Trinidad, Barry Farms, or any other project in DC not connected to a river, Baltimore, Annapolis, Ocean City, Fredrick, Silver Spring, or Bethesda, or any other MD project not connected to the Potomac or Anacostia Rivers.
Quote:
National Harbor will not come close to the 24 hour/7 days a week/365 days a year foot traffic or visitor count of any attraction in D.C. That is what I mean.
I'm not sure why you keep including all attractions in DC not located on the SW Waterfront. And being born and raised in DC, we know that DC is no NYC when it comes to 24/7 amenities. DC shuts down at night. Hence the reason why the metro closes. Personally, I think DC should be a 24/7 city, but its not. And we are not comparing foot traffic in an entire city to foot traffic at one project. That again is pointless. DC by number of residents alone is more dense than a single project that has almost no permanent residences. That's why I started by comparing the two waterfronts alone.
Location: That star on your map in the middle of the East Coast, DMV
8,128 posts, read 7,547,924 times
Reputation: 5785
Quote:
Originally Posted by adelphi_sky
I agree with this.
Again, I don't think we should be comparing an entire city's amenities to those of an 8 square block project. That was not my intention for this thread.
Again, I was asking for thoughts on the SW Waterfront project called The Wharf and its amenities alone compared to National Harbor and its amenities alone in terms of their specific purposes to attract visitors to the waterfront.
What should not be included in this comparison:
Any non-riverfront part of DC or MD. This includes the National Mall, the museums, Georgetown, Petworth, Dupont Circle, Trinidad, Barry Farms, or any other project in DC not connected to a river, Baltimore, Annapolis, Ocean City, Fredrick, Silver Spring, or Bethesda, or any other MD project not connected to the Potomac or Anacostia Rivers.
I'm not sure why you keep including all attractions in DC not located on the SW Waterfront. And being born and raised in DC, we know that DC is no NYC when it comes to 24/7 amenities. DC shuts down at night. Hence the reason why the metro closes. Personally, I think DC should be a 24/7 city, but its not. And we are not comparing foot traffic in an entire city to foot traffic at one project. That again is pointless. DC by number of residents alone is more dense than a single project that has almost no permanent residences. That's why I started by comparing the two waterfronts alone.
This is exactly what I'm saying... I thought the point of the thread was to compare the two waterfront communities as a singular entity. My point is that in a head to head match up within the confines of the two developments and nothing outside that radius, National Harbor can be argued to have as many or more amenities.
Hotel Space: National Harbor easily
Intimacy/ Closest feel to water: The Wharf
Entertainment: National Harbor (keep underestimating MGM, Ferris Wheel etc)
Retail: National Harbor (Tanger outlets are what sets it over top)
Vibrancy: The Wharf probably takes this because of city location
Authenticity: The Wharf
Convention Space: National Harbor blows it out the water
Restaurants: We won't know this until The Wharf is completed
I really think it's and apples to pears kind of comparison (not quite apples to oranges) but they serve very different purposes when you think about it. I mean the National Harbor was built to have it's own zip code, has town homes the size of SFH's, overrated condos, thousands of hotel rooms, and now are building high priced apartments there, not to mention Children's Museum. Nonetheless both of these projects should attempt to unify and attract each others visitors to the other locale because they share the same river.
This is exactly what I'm saying... I thought the point of the thread was to compare the two waterfront communities as a singular entity. My point is that in a head to head match up within the confines of the two developments and nothing outside that radius, National Harbor can be argued to have as many or more amenities.
Hotel Space: National Harbor easily
Intimacy/ Closest feel to water: The Wharf
Entertainment: National Harbor (keep underestimating MGM, Ferris Wheel etc)
Retail: National Harbor (Tanger outlets are what sets it over top)
Vibrancy: The Wharf probably takes this because of city location
Authenticity: The Wharf
Convention Space: National Harbor blows it out the water
Restaurants: We won't know this until The Wharf is completed
I really think it's and apples to pears kind of comparison (not quite apples to oranges) but they serve very different purposes when you think about it. I mean the National Harbor was built to have it's own zip code, has town homes the size of SFH's, overrated condos, thousands of hotel rooms, and now are building high priced apartments there, not to mention Children's Museum. Nonetheless both of these projects should attempt to unify and attract each others visitors to the other locale because they share the same river.
We won't know about retail or hotel space until the Wharf is completed either. They are building an International Hotel, I believe with 600+ rooms. On top of the 330,000+ square feet of retail.
Again, I don't think we should be comparing an entire city's amenities to those of an 8 square block project. That was not my intention for this thread.
Again, I was asking for thoughts on the SW Waterfront project called The Wharf and its amenities alone compared to National Harbor and its amenities alone in terms of their specific purposes to attract visitors to the waterfront.
What should not be included in this comparison:
Any non-riverfront part of DC or MD. This includes the National Mall, the museums, Georgetown, Petworth, Dupont Circle, Trinidad, Barry Farms, or any other project in DC not connected to a river, Baltimore, Annapolis, Ocean City, Fredrick, Silver Spring, or Bethesda, or any other MD project not connected to the Potomac or Anacostia Rivers.
I'm not sure why you keep including all attractions in DC not located on the SW Waterfront. And being born and raised in DC, we know that DC is no NYC when it comes to 24/7 amenities. DC shuts down at night. Hence the reason why the metro closes. Personally, I think DC should be a 24/7 city, but its not. And we are not comparing foot traffic in an entire city to foot traffic at one project. That again is pointless. DC by number of residents alone is more dense than a single project that has almost no permanent residences. That's why I started by comparing the two waterfronts alone.
Here's the thing, you can't look at a development without factoring in location unless you want to make a subpar analysis. It's impossible to conduct a SWAT analysis on an area of development without taking into account location. The weaknesses for the development may in fact be location. The strengths for development are many times location also.
I'll give you an example of what you're trying to do. You're looking at the layout of two houses in different area's right now. You're examining the architecture and all the finishing's on the inside and outside of the houses, however, you're not analyzing the neighborhoods and amenities around the two house's. Are both of the houses by themselves great? You bet! Were both of the houses built with amazing architecture and finishing's? Absolutely! So what is the problem? Well, one of your houses is in a subpar location compared to the other house you were looking at and has less than 10% of the amenities surrounding the other house.
Again, it's impossible to perform a professional analysis of the two developments without taking all the factors into account. Can we perform a comparison of two house's only on the inside and outside of the houses? Sure. But who would actually do that without factoring location into their decision.
National Harbor is not going to be compared to San Francisco's Waterfront, Seattle's Waterfront, or London's Waterfront. Washington D.C.'s Waterfront will be compared. I think we as residents should be excited that all this stuff is going to exist in the D.C. area that we will be able to enjoy. That includes National Harbor. It's not fair to try to compare National Harbor to the Wharf. The Wharf is in a different league. The restaurants will include world renown Iron Chefs. Chefs that don't open restaurants in the suburbs. The retail will be boutique. The performance spaces will be first class with places like the 9:30 club opening up venues there.
The Wharf and National Harbor are apples and oranges.
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