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You know Bajan, there's no better way to show your ignorance of DC's populace than to use Chinatown as an example of the city's supposed "non-diversity". Even native Washingtonians who have been here for decades never considered Chinatown a true ethnic enclave. At best, it was a compact Asian ghetto for a few decades that attracted enough entrepeneurial spirit to see a few restaurants and gift shops open--that's it.
DC is most certainly an international city, but Chinatown is a poor place to head to find it.
Wrong. Montgomery County may have some international flavor. The District of Columbia does not. DC is mostly black people whose families migrated from the Carolinas after WWII. Then you have El Salvadorans in Columbia Heights. There are some Ethiopians around U Street (but they mostly live in VA and Silver Spring) and wealthy Blacks around 16th Street. And then there are very affluent whites everywhere else. That's where the "international" aspect of DC comes in. It's not like DC is drawing boats loads of immigrants a la Ellis Island. It's pulling a lot of the elites from various places. It takes a lot more than a few thousand rich foreigners to make a city an "international" city.
Like I said before, you can't find a canoli the District. It's hard to find a newspaper that's not in English or Spanish (even Charlotte, NC has spanish papers). You really only hear English on the train...maybe Spanish depending on where you are. Do you still want to call DC an international city?
More cultural opportunities. Philly has nice galleries and museums; DC has better ones--and more of them. DC has an unfathomable number of events and opportunities related to the presence of all of the embassies in the city. Practically every week you can find street fairs, cultural celebrations and other events to enjoy. Also, institutions such as the National Cathedral and National Shrine present a treasure trove of opportunities to attend programs and lectures covering a diverse array of topics.
Better wining and dining options. DC was once maligned as a dining backwater, but no longer. In practically every neighborhood and quadrant of the city, you can find top-notch restaurants, pubs and fine dining establishments covering every cuisine imaginable. And as for wine, northern Virginia has an impressive assortment of wineries set in beautiful settings thata re turning out some really good wine. Try the Linden Reisling or the Rappahanock Vineyards Chardonnay.
More green space/outdoor options. Forget strolling along the National Mall, how about hiking through Rock Creek Park--where you can feel like you're in the middle of the wilderness, when in fact you're in the middle of the city? Do some kayaking along the Potomac. Hike out to Great Falls, or go jogging along the C&O canal towpath or Rock Creek parkway. Bike along the Crescent Trail to Georgetown, or along the Mt. Vernon Trail to Alexandria. Stroll through acres of beautiful foliage at the National Arboretum and Kenilworth Aquatic Gardens. Want to get out of the city? Shenandoah National Park is only 1 1/2 hours away and offers superb hiking and camping possibilities, and the eastern shore is barely 3 hours away.
Aesthetic Beauty. Tall buildings do not by themsevles a city make, and DC is proof of that. You can have your Philadelphia skyscrapers, I'll take my U.S. Capitol, White House, Lincoln and Jefferson Memorials, and other stately government and office buildings scattered throughout the core of central DC. Want to extend out beyond the downtown area? Check out Logan Circle's stunning Victorian mansions, the stately rowhouses of Georgetown, the turn-of-the-century homes along Pennsylvania Ave in southeast, or the breathtaking mansions of Kalorama. The National Shrine and Washington National Cathedral aren't bad, either.
Better Public Transportation. Philly's traffic might not be quite as bad as DC's (although it's no cakewalk), but the Metro beats SEPTA as far as convenience and coverage goes. Throw in a comprehensive bus system, the Circulator lines through downtown, and regional rail lines like MARC and VRE, and as bad as DC's traffic is, there are usually ways to avoid it.
Multiculturalism. The people I have met in DC are truly amazing, and come from a variety of backgrounds that you are unlikely to find in any American city outside of New York. The city's multiculturalism adds a vibrancy and energy to the city that, while altogether different from cities such as New York and Los Angeles, is special all the same.
Neighborhoods. I really don't know where coldbliss was coming from when he stated that unlike DC, Philly has "real" neighborhoods. There is perhaps no city in the U.S. more defined by the individual cultures within its many neighborhoods than is DC. Adams-Morgan, Capitol Hill, Brookland, Georgetown, Columbia Heights, Dupont, Logan Circle, Cleveland Park, Takoma...all are unique, and all have particularly desireable attributes that controbute to the overall fabric of the city.
Finally, I'd be remiss if I failed to point out that the views of the city one is offered from various points around the region is frequently anything less than spectacular. There are times when I'm driving across the 14th Street bridge and I see the Jefferson memorial and Washington Monument rise before me, or when strolling across the mall gazing out onto the glow of the Capitol Dome, when I feel that there isn't anyplace in the world I would rather be.
Philly has its charms, but if we're going to bring up things like tall buildings and sports teams (of which DC has plenty), we should be fair and bring up the positive--and unique--attributes of DC as well.
I've got to to take up for my hometown.
1. Cultural opportunities - I wouldn't say that DC has more. They're just different. DC has great museums. But what makes Philly great is that the Art Museum (although only free on Sundays) has a lot of contemporary art...some by local artists. In fact, art is everywhere in Philly. You see it in the form of murals on walls scattered throughout the city (which was the brainchild of the Phila Arts Commission), you can hear it in the music of the Roots, Floetry, and Musiq Soulchild (hmmm...any comparable DC artists?). You can see art in motion in the Freedom Theatre, where my sisters both danced. And there's always a lot of stuff going on around UPenn. And the Philadelphia Free Library is much, much, much better than that sorry excuse for a library on 9th Street. The District should be ashamed of the lousy state of its public libraries. Even Southwest Philly has better libraries than what you find in most of D.C. And I won't even get started on the Sursum Corda and Trinidad branches. Terrible!!!
2. Better wining and dining options - Uhh, Philly has DC beat hands down...even in terms of the upscale stuff. I don't venture to Center City that often, but there's some great stuff down there. And you'll find good restaurants in the most unusual places...like in an alley or something. I know my sister swears by Morning Glory, but I haven't been there yet. And there are some cool places near the Italian Market, but I haven't been down there since Junior High. Again, where can I get some decent sausage and peppers in DC????
3. Outdoor Recreation - Let's stick to the city limits. If you can claim Shenadoah, then I can claim Central Park. Anyway, I love Rock Creek Park. Rock Creek Parkway reminds me a lot of Lincoln Drive back home. But I'd have to say Wissahickon/Fairmount Park is a lot better...with the Henry Ave Bridge, the statues, the trails and the old stone buildings. And Kelly Drive is kinda cool too. Plus, Love Park is way more high energy and eclectic than anything DC has to offer. And Philadelphia Water Works is pretty dope as well.
4. Aesthetic Beauty - Residentially, I'll have to concede this point. Most of Philly is really terrible, with the exception of Mount Airy/Germantown/Chestnut Hill and some places in W. Philly near City Ave. Center City is way better than downtown DC, though. And Germantown/Mt. Airy is kinda cool with the cobblestone on the Ave and the old 23 Trolley tracks still there....a lot of character.
5. SEPTA v. Metro - Metro wins. But I will knock it for not having express trains. At least the Frankford El has skip stops during the week. And at least we call it the "El" and not something ridiculous like "Metro," which is really just copying the Parisians. We have the old school trolleys running down Erie Ave, too. So there...in your face!
6. Multiculturalism - I just don't think of DC as being multicultural. Maybe it is. I do know that Philly is a more ethnic city than DC. And I like the way I can leave my mom's house in Mt. Airy, see Orthodox Jews on the way to the Synagogue, and then walk across G-Town Ave and see Muslims on the way to the Masjid.
7. Neighborhoods - No city is more defined by neighborhoods than Philadelphia. My dad always tells stories about how 63rd St used to be the boundary between Blacks and Italians in West. If they crossed 63rd, the Italian kids would chase them with hockey sticks. If the Italians crossed 63rd, then the they'd get pounded. Not to condone racial segregation...but in Philly territory is very well-defined. It's for our own safety.
Plus, I like driving around the city and seeing the beautiful, chaotic tapestry that we call home. Asians, Blacks, Italians, Jews, Greeks, Poles, Ricans, Dominicans, Jamaicans, Bajans, Trinis, Russians, Irish Catholics...some rich, many poor (even white people live in poverty). The unions, the politics and the corruption, the organized crime, the garbage, the boxing, the activism (MOVE, the Black Panthers, Hebrew Israelites...might be crazy, but they add something to the urban landscape), the smell of Halal chicken on G-Town Ave, free water ice from Rita's on the first day of spring, soft pretzels and hot mustard, cheesesteaks from Max's on the Avenue, the "Bully" (short for Roosevelt Blvd) in the summer, kids playing stickball and hockey in the Northeast, girls playing double dutch on Lansdowne, the barbecues in Fairmount Park, the rich tradition of Philadelphia's music scene, all come together to create this city that I love. I'm proud to be from there. I just wish we could get some better jobs and better girls and I'd move back.
Last edited by BajanYankee; 03-31-2009 at 06:12 PM..
Again, where can I get some decent sausage and peppers in DC????
Litteri's. It's in NE DC near the NY Avenue stop in the middle of all the food distribution places. You can find a menu online, or just go there and wander the shop while you wait.
Still working on the pizza, it's my personal mission.
Sometimes, I think Philly has this inferiority complex towards NY which any city would but Philly has the misfortune of being very close to it which tends plays a role in the roughness of its populace.
I wouldn't call it an inferiority complex. But we're definitely underdogs.
I like the fact that Philly has a lot of toughness to it. That's what we are. There's a reason why Rocky was made in Philly and not DC. I couldn't picture Rocko sippin' Chai Tea while reading the City Paper at an outdoor cafe on P Street.
I have a lot of love for New York. But we get ticked off at some of them because they expect everything to comply with Manhattan standards. I remember an article in the NYT about Philly being NYC's 6th Borough or some nonsense like that. The author said that Philly was "kitch." Someone from the Inquirer tore her a new one. Maybe I'll look for it and post it some time.
Wrong. Montgomery County may have some international flavor. The District of Columbia does not. DC is mostly black people whose families migrated from the Carolinas after WWII. Then you have El Salvadorans in Columbia Heights. There are some Ethiopians around U Street (but they mostly live in VA and Silver Spring) and wealthy Blacks around 16th Street. And then there are very affluent whites everywhere else. That's where the "international" aspect of DC comes in. It's not like DC is drawing boats loads of immigrants a la Ellis Island. It's pulling a lot of the elites from various places. It takes a lot more than a few thousand rich foreigners to make a city an "international" city.
Like I said before, you can't find a canoli the District. It's hard to find a newspaper that's not in English or Spanish (even Charlotte, NC has spanish papers). You really only hear English on the train...maybe Spanish depending on where you are. Do you still want to call DC an international city?
Well coming from a much smaller city down south I was definitely floored by how international and cultural DC is. I both strongly disagree with you and agree with you.
True most immigrants do not live in the District itself. But really and truly that's most people in general. Suburbanites like myself far outnumber those who actually reside within city limits. Where would you put 5 million+ people when you can't have buildings over a certain height anyways. The District has no true middle class neighborhoods for raising families. You're either in an expensive neighborhood dominiated by single people or you're in a crime ridden neighborhood or both. So of course immigrants flock to Montgomery or Fairfax counties.
At the same time I disagree with the statement. I mean come on you've got embassies from like every country in DC. So maybe some of the immigrants in the District aren't neccesarily poor but they're still from another country. Then you've got Columbia Heights. You can't just say well they're Salvadorans they don't count since most of them are in VA and MD. Then there's all those Ethiopian restaurants on U street. Again you can't say well most of them live in Silver Spring that doesn't count. It's still way more diversity that my hometown can claim.
I don't eat canolis so I don't really care.
Anyways so yeah I'm going to say that while yes Fairfax county (don't know enough about the Maryland side) is way more diverse, DC still gets to call itself an international city.
Also what's up with hating on DC in the first place. Why not just say why you think Philly is great without putting anyone else down. Also Italians chasing black folks out of their neighborhoods and vice versa isn't a bragging point. Also it's no secret that DC is not known for it's historically ethnic neighborhoods. Until after World War II it was indeed a much smaller southern town that coincidentally happen to have the capital in it. From my understanding it wasn't after WWII, well after Ellis Island's claim to fame, that DC and the surrounding area took off.
So while you make some valid points and I like where your train of thought is going, can't quite ride with you the whole trip, so this is my stop.
At the end of the day, I guess you have to take the good with the bad...and quite possibly the ugly.
DC (Good):
1. Beautiful, solidly built rowhomes, 2. good jobs, 3. cosmopolitan, 4. pretty girls, 5. more racial interspersion (which is an upside of yuppiness...the more money people make, the less race seems to matter to them), pretty fun nightlife
DC (Bad):
1. Homogeneity (everyone seems to be a lawyer/govt employee...and like you said, you either live in a rich or poor neighborhood); 2. City is trying to engineer a new identity (or just ignore the one that already exists)
DC (Ugly):
1. Schools, Murder, Department of Motor Vehicles
Philly (Good):
1. Distinct personality, there's an attitude that comes along with being a Philadelphian, much like being a New Yorker; 2. Nice, diverse middle class neighborhoods within city limits (East Falls, Mt. Airy, Oak Lane, G-Town, Wynnefield), 3. Style (we're trendsetters...we started white tees, fitted caps, jerseys, and timbs), 4. Artistic community, 5. Decent nightlife for singles
Philly (Bad):
1. Schools, 2. Not too many hot chicks, 3. Poor ethnic enclaves, 4. Job market not so hot (but if you've got a hot job, you'll love the housing market), 5. Nightlife is not as good as NY or DC.
Philly (Ugly):
1. Murder, 2. Corruption's accepted the way the confederate flag is accepted in South Carolina...it's our heritage and way of life
To answer your question, I'm not living in Philly now because the women are much better here and the jobs are as well. That's a good combination, don't you think? I may go back to Philly to raise a family, though. It's cheaper and it's a lot like NYC but without the crowds. Here are some pictures of my hood (and where I'd probably raise kids):
Mount Airy Day 2006 on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/alankin/2162578538/in/set-72157603622288963/ - broken link)
At the same time I disagree with the statement. I mean come on you've got embassies from like every country in DC. So maybe some of the immigrants in the District aren't neccesarily poor but they're still from another country. Then you've got Columbia Heights. You can't just say well they're Salvadorans they don't count since most of them are in VA and MD. Then there's all those Ethiopian restaurants on U street. Again you can't say well most of them live in Silver Spring that doesn't count. It's still way more diversity that my hometown can claim.
I think what Bajan is referring to is that "diversity" in DC is different than other cities like Philly, NY, Chicago, etc. You don't have as many of the ethnic enclaves in the city (the idea that most are in the suburbs baffled me, originally). Embassies ensure that a lot of foreign citizens are around, which is definitely interesting, but embassy or World Bank staff who are here for a few years is different than people who come, create their own social circle, and remain for decades. Ethnic lines are now more blurred, but you can still see areas in other cities that are decidedly Irish, Italian, Polish, Ukrainian, German, Liberian, Ethiopian, Vietnamese, Chinese, Japanese, Puerto Rican, Cuban, etc. There are some areas like that here, but I feel you have to look for them more. The entire culture of DC is also different. In places like Philly or New York you have a long history of immigrants coming and building a life for themselves and their children. Here the culture is more often "hang out, work, and then move away".
Now I see that DC is very diverse, but it took me a while to get used to. At first, all I really saw was black and white. I couldn't believe how hard it was to find a Byzantine or Orthodox church closer than 45 minutes away (where I grew up there were at least 4 or 5 within 2 miles of my house, not to mention about 6 synagogues, several mosques, and various Protestant churches). The lack of a real Chinatown was also surprising, and yes, it's hard to find a true Italian shop with good cannoli (Litteri's, I'm telling you, gotta go). When you grow up surrounded by Korean noodle houses, halal sandwich shops, German markets, Italian butchers, Jewish delis, and Ukrainian churches churning out pyrohy & holubtsi weekly, then DC can seem less diverse (especially when you first hang out in downtown/Chinatown and only see Cosi, Starbucks, Potbelly, and other chains).
That said, I didn't know the joy of a Peruvian chicken until moving here...
I'll have to try Litteri's this weekend. It's in the farmer's market, huh? Near the Subway? Anyways,
It's been cool to get everyone's opinions on the two cities. I'll have everyone know that I really do love DC and that even includes its Go-Go scene. I just find it fascinating that people seem to forget about Philadelphia. One of my cousins came from Barbados to attend the inauguration. I told her I wanted to go home for a day and she came along...reluctantly. She didn't think there was anything on the coast but for DC and NYC. She had me doing stuff I hadn't done in years...Boathouse Row, the Art Museum, Rittenhouse Square. There was so much I didn't get to show her and it made me think about all the stuff I lived around for 17 years and never gave a f*ck about. These are some of the cooler things in Philly that may attract people. It's not all a big dump.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/skyo/573264461/ (broken link)
Rittenhouse sundial statue on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/moocat/2126143972/ - broken link) http://www.flickr.com/photos/moocat/238016152/ (broken link) http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimherrington/3236156959/ (broken link) http://www.flickr.com/photos/20414118@N04/2277633954/ (broken link)
in concert on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/nardell/349407959/ - broken link)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ffhcd/53019327/in/set-93771/ (broken link)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/colapics/2975196877/ (broken link) http://www.flickr.com/photos/philastories/2937462/ (broken link)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/heaintcomin/3147605756/ (broken link)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/marcus_surrealleous/3267921508/ (broken link)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alankin/2178983561/ (broken link) (I played in this league)
Last edited by BajanYankee; 04-01-2009 at 05:54 PM..
I'll have to try Litteri's this weekend. It's in the farmer's market, huh? Near the Subway? Anyways,
It's been cool to get everyone's opinions on the two cities. I'll have everyone know that I really do love DC and that even includes its Go-Go scene. I just find it fascinating that people seem to forget about Philadelphia. One of my cousins came from Barbados to attend the inauguration. I told her I wanted to go home for a day and she came along...reluctantly. She didn't think there was anything on the coast but for DC and NYC. She had me doing stuff I hadn't done in years...Boathouse Row, the Art Museum, Rittenhouse Square. There was so much I didn't get to show her and it made me think about all the stuff I lived around for 17 years and never gave a f*ck about. These are some of the cooler things in Philly that may attract people. It's not all a big dump.
They have a website, so you can check out the location and hours before you go (might have to call for the hours). It's funny, I've gotten so used to that attitude about Philly that when my friend from LA freaks out about wanting to go up there (she's dying to see the Art Museum and everything else her other friends told her about) it throws me off. My two coworkers went up a few weeks ago and spent the day biking around the city. They absolutely loved it (though learned not to eat 3 cheesesteaks and a bag of soft pretzels in one day).
DC's ethnic group has always been the African American community!
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