where to live... (Spokane: real estate, homes, buy)

[Nasidog]

My husband and I thought we had found the perfect place to live...not too cold, not too hot (we don't mind a little snow), lots of trees, lakes, mountains nearby, smaller city, etc. We thought Coeur d'Alene, Idaho would be perfect for our new family until we found out about the amount of toxins in the lake and surrounding areas. We have a 9 month old and plan to have more children but obviously don't want to live in an environment exposed to a lot of lead! Does anyone have any suggestions as to areas similar to Coeur d' Alene? We've been looking in Washington, Oregon and Colorado but don't seem to see anything that compares to the weather and look of Coeur d'Alene. Any suggestions much appreciated!

[RodFarlee]

Originally Posted by Nasidog

We thought Coeur d'Alene, Idaho would be perfect for our new family until we found out about the amount of toxins in the lake and surrounding areas. We have a 9 month old and plan to have more children but obviously don't want to live in an environment exposed to a lot of lead!

As a chemist who participated in heavy metal environmental studies in Idaho, having toured the Bunker Hill mine, smelter and superfund site, seen sediments and their analyses from the river and lake (which do not affect CdA's air or water supply), and read studies of children in the Kellogg/Wallace area, I am certain there is no realistic basis for your concern. These sediments now lie safely buried. Kellogg was affected while the smelters were in operation and to a lessening extent by dust afterwards, but CdA, 40 miles away, never was and never will be. For this to even possibly affect your child, you'd have drive an hour to the river, catch the limit every month, freeze them, and deliberately feed these to him several times a week for years.

[Nasidog]

Thanks so much for posting your response RodFarlee. My concern came from reading a study done in the area by ATSDR. See link at the bottom of this post.

At the bottom of the article ATSDR concluded the following:

"Based on the information available, ATSDR concludes the following:

1. The proposed EALs (early action level) for antimony, arsenic, cadmium, and lead may not provide an adequate margin of safety for area residents.

2. People vacationing the CUAs (Common Use Areas) are not likely to experience adverse health effects from metals below the EALs. "


The part that concerns me is they state that there may not be an adequate margin of safety for area residents and that local area children have an elevated level of lead in their blood as compared to the national average. The local average is 5.4 micrograms vs. national average of 2.5 and 8% of the local children have 10 micrograms or more.

There are gaps in the details like where the children being tested lived and what the significance of 10 micrograms per liter of blood is to childrens health.

Is this the same study that you refereced in your reply? Or is there another study or information that might help us feel better about living in the area?...because this particular study frankly scared the crap out of us! Thanks for you expertise. We appreciate any info!

http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/hac/PHA/coe/coe_p1.html

[RodFarlee]

Have you looked at a map? The Coeur d'Alene River does not go through the city of Coeur d'Alene.

Kellogg is 43 miles east of Coeur d'Alene on I-90, over Fourth of July pass, in another county. This is the location of the former Bunker Hill mine and smelter, which is now the former superfund cleanup site.

The south fork of the Coeur d"Alene River runs right past the site. Until 1970, water pumped from the mine or leaching through the mine tailings entered the river. It was opaque and ran various colors from turquoise to yellow to orange, and contained a lot of heavy metals. In the early 1970s, the state and the Clean Water Act required the mines to build and operate settling ponds which greatly improved matters. The river completely cleared up after the mine closed in 1981.

Heavy metals remain in the sediments. Downstream of Kellogg, at Cataldo, the river enters an estruary system about 20 miles long. Its course winds around and through a dozen lakes, the largest of which is Rose Lake. This estruary system trapped nearly all of the contaminated sediments, and has since buried them under more recent, clean sediments accumulated over the last 25 years. The river ends at Harrison, on the east shore of Lake Coeur d'Alene. Harrison is 34 miles southeast of the city of Coeur d'Alene. The memo you reference, "the 47 Common Use Areas in the Coeur d'Alene Basin EAST OF HARRISON", ends there, because the problem ends there.

During spring floods, some sediments are eroded and carried into the lake. They can be detected, but are at low and nonhazardous levels. That is also what the study you referenced shows.

Now lets read the study carefully: "assumptions: 200 mg soil/sediment ingested, 10 kg BW, absorption 60%, and two days per week for four months for area residents".

Translation: for this to be of concern, this study says you have to drive one hour from Coeur d'Alene, not stopping at any the nice sandy or gravelly beaches on the lake, or even on the river, but instead search out some muddy bank of the river, some stagnant muddy pool where the current doesn't wash the muddy water away, where your child would somehow want to run and wallow and stir up the mud, and then force your kid to drink about a pint of this really muddy water without upchucking it, and repeat this two days a week for four months a year.

The numbers in the study are doubtless factual, but this scenario strains the bounds of credulity, to say the very least. (If you suspend 60 mg of silt in a glass of water, you can't see though it, and it's undrinkable. He has to drink 3-1/2 times that much, and it do again and again, thirty four times a year? As the study says "Ingestion of turbid water may occur; however, the water will contain sediment particles giving the water an unpleasant texture and, possibly, an unpleasant taste." Well, that's an understatement.) Finally, this amount is for a 22 pound child; double these amounts for 44 pounds, etc. Kids can be pigs, and parents can be idiots, but this is beyond my comprehension.

Finally, their assumption of 60% absorption by the digestive tract of the metals in the ingested sediment also highly dubious.

Other studies show that a diet consisting primarily of fish from the CdA River could eventually raise metal levels above safe levels. This would require similar implausible scenarios, but it is possible.

More validly, the study does point out that the average lead levels in children in the "Silver Valley" (Kellogg, Osburn, Wallace) were found to be elevated in studies done in the 1970s and 80s. The source of this was dust from contaminated soil, which was removed as part of the superfund cleanup. Again, these mining towns are 40 to 50 miles east of Coeur d'Alene, over a mountain pass, in another county, and ended years ago before the cleanup was completed.

Coeur d'Alene was never affected. I don't understand your concern.

If this still bothers you, just don't go to the CdA River. Go to the lake, or the Spokane River, or Farragut park, or Spirit Lake, etc. They're closer to town anyway.

I apologize for the lengthy reply. I also apologize that scientific studies like this are not required to be framed more realistically, so they have to be read carefully to be understood. The authors do the public a disservice by inventing unrealistic scenarios to inflate the significance of their work.

[niguel2000]

Maybe look at the given expected appreciation of real estate in the given area you are looking. Your family will have a much more solid future if you buy right. There are many people in Washington that think we are tapped out and real estate cant go any higher. This is however false due to boeing, microsoft and about 100,000 people moving here in the next 5 years. If you are looking for the seasons, wilderness, lakes, and the city, everett is an affordable place to live and the expected appreciation is greater then a lot of the other areas of Washington.

[RodFarlee]

Originally Posted by Nasidog

There are gaps in the details like where the children being tested lived and what the significance of 10 micrograms per liter of blood is to childrens health.

This is a 1983 study of children living within the Superfund cleanup site area, which extends from Mullen to Cataldo, the mining area 40 to 55 miles east of Coeur d'Alene. Followup blood testing has not been done. Instead, the EPA concentrated on removing the source: contaminated soil in residential yards. Fill from the mine site, then considered harmless, was used as fill, often to raise yards above the 100 year flood plain of the river. The problem was worst in the city of Kellogg, 43 miles east of Coeur d'Alene.

For an unbiased and critical review of the entire superfund cleanup on the Coeur d'Alene river, see the National Academy of Sciences report, available free online: http://www.nap.edu/catalog/11359.html

The significance of 10 ug/l blood lead action level is controversial. We just don't have enough data to know. Most data come from children in big cities who injested peeling lead paint and dust from leaded gasoline exhaust, and who often suffered from poverty and related factors (poor diet, family drug, alcohol and physical abuse, broken homes, etc.) Separating the effect of these factors on scholastic success is fraught with uncertainties. More recent studies, based on biology not epidemilogy, suggest the action level should be lowered, and it remains unclear if any level of lead is "safe" (i.e. has no possible effects, however slight).

The study you cite is also misleading. To frame this correctly, nationwide, "The median concentration of lead in the blood of children 5 years old and under dropped from 15 micrograms per deciliter (µg/dL) in 1976-1980 to 2.2 µg/dL in 1999-2000, a decline of 85 percent."
http://www.epa.gov/envirohealth/children/body_burdens/b1.htm (broken link)

So the study you cite compares kids in Kellogg in 1983 to the much lower 1999 national average. Even though they were WELL BELOW the 1983 national average. In Kellogg in 1983, 50% of kids had >5.4 ug/l and only 8% had >10 ug/l in 1983, while in 1980 nationwide 50% of kids had >15 ug/l. However misleading this comparison is, lead is a valid cause for concern, which is why we banned leaded paint, leaded gasoline, and cleaned up the mine site.

Again, none of this affects the city of Coeur d'Alene, and again I apologize for the lengthy replies. I see no cause for concern here.

[silverfox]

Nasidog,

If the incredible information that RodFarlee presented doesn't convince you that you will be O.K. in C.D. then I don't know what will.
The only thing I could add to his info would be that if you are still concerned, you might also look into the quality of the drinking water including the data on lead content. Contact the city water dept for starters.

You can take steps to eliminate that issue as well. If you purchase an older home you may have concern about the materials in the water delivery system in the house. If it is a big concern you may want to have a sample of your water taken and tested.
You can negate the issue by doing one of several steps that may be worth the investment and effort. Here are some things that you can do.

1. Install a small home steam distiller with a proper carbon block filter ahead to remove the Chlorine if they put it in the water supply there. Thats important.

2. Install a re-verse Os-mosis unit to clean most all the contaminents. I would put a post carbon block filter in the system as well.

3. Install an Ion-Exchange unit with a pre and post carbon block filter.

These are just some of the things you could do if you feel compelled.

They sound complicated but really are not, and if you would like I could furnish you with the names and phone numbers of the businesses and people that could make it happen at a level you could easily manage. They do not live in C.D but they could either advise you and/or ship to you.

If however the test results come back negative for your tap water, you won't have to do anything, and you will be located where you really want to be without the concern anymore.

Hope this helps complete the info you need to make your all important decision.

Good luck in C.D.

Silverfox

[Nasidog]

RodFarlee, thank you for your time and expertise in interpreting the confusing data about the area of Coeur d'Alene. I have to admit I am feeling better about the area in general. The only thing that I'm still confused about is that the Spokane River which exits the lake adjacent to the city of Coeur d'Alene is highly polluted with contaminated beaches, river banks and water. How is it that the pollutants that come from the southern part of the lake make it to the northern part of the lake and into the Spokane river without affecting the environment in the northern area of the lake around Coeur d'Alene? It seems to me that the northern part of the lake would have to be polluted as well in order for the Spokane river to be so polluted. Here is a link from US Geological Survey showing a map of the area and the existing pollutants:
http://geology.usgs.gov/connections/...aho_assess.htm
Also, the report that you referenced states that "the Spokane river water frequently exceeds water quality standards for zinc, lead and cadmium. The major source of these metals is the outflow from Lake Coeur d'Alene".
I apologize for all of the questions. Thanks for your patience and help in understanding all of this information. We just don't want to make a big move until we have all of the facts. Thanks again for your time.

[RodFarlee]

Coeur d'Alene city water is from several wells in the Rathdrum Prairie aquifer, most of which originates from Lake Pend Orielle near Farragut State Park. The city water quality report is available online.
http://www.coeurdaleneidaho.org/mod/...es/ccr2004.pdf
By law, utilities must test for lead and report it if detected. It isn't.

Lead in drinking water usually results from corrosion of older soldered copper plumbing by acidic water taken from a river after a summer rainstorm. (Acid rain is widespread in the northeast quarter of the US.)

In contrast, the Rathdrum aquifer has a consistant pH ~7.5, adequate alkalinity ~90 mg/L to maintain stable pH, and moderate hardness ~50 mg/L, and these parameters are stable year-round. It will not cause plumbing corrosion.
http://www.spokaneaquifer.org/2003WQReport.pdf

Because Coeur d'Alene's water is noncorrosive, there's no reason to test individual households' tap water for lead.

[RodFarlee]

Originally Posted by Nasidog

The only thing that I'm still confused about is that the Spokane River which exits the lake adjacent to the city of Coeur d'Alene is highly polluted with contaminated beaches, river banks and water. How is it that the pollutants that come from the southern part of the lake make it to the northern part of the lake and into the Spokane river without affecting the environment in the northern area of the lake around Coeur d'Alene?

The National Academy of Sciences report:
http://darwin.nap.edu/books/0309097142/html (broken link)
tries to answer this question. I'll give you a synopsis, and you may type the page number in on the above link to read the full text.

Page 293: Most lead is present the form of small particles suspended in water, not dissolved in water. It is transported with sediment, particularly during spring flood events.

Page 91: During spring floods, warmer floodwater from the Coeur d'Alene River entering the colder lake floats across the surface of the lake and out the Spokane River. This can be seen visually, and the temperature difference can be measured.

Page 94: The source is mainly resuspended fine sediment from the lower CdA River that traverse the lake during spring runoff.

Page 89: Lead particles remaining in the lake settle to deep water sediments, where:
Page 90: they are stable for chemical reasons
Page 146: which are unlikely to change in the future.
Page 89: Beaches on the lake have low levels of lead.

So that's how lead appears to "hop" from the CdA River to the Spokane River without leaving any significant effect on the lake water quality or ecology.

Most of the concern in the Spokane River is about zinc. For people, zinc is an essential nutrient added to daily vitamin/mineral supplements.
Page 81. But zinc affects sensitive aquatic insects (mayflies) and bottom fish (sculpin), enough so they are not found in the south fork of the CdA River above Enaville.
Page 87. Native cutthroat and bull trout are probably affected more by competition with introduced rainbow trout than by zinc.

Beyond what's in the NAS report, there's deep criticism in Idaho over EPA's handling of the cleanup. I can't address all the issues. Relevant here however is that reducing spring floods would reduce sediment transport. The EPA has done nothing to address this. To do so, their mandate would have to be extended to the larger uncontaminated north fork of the CdA River, where extensive past logging has increased spring floods. However, this is also the source of uncontaminated sediments which have buried most the problem.

Overall, this is now at the stage where it is no longer a human health issue, it is an ecological issue. The studies focus now on minimizing effects on insects, fish and birds. This needn't affect your decision on whether to raise children in Coeur d'Alene.