"Pacific Northwest" term (Seattle, Spokane: buy, store, farm)

[CrazyDonkey]

Originally Posted by Seacove

I can see Idaho as Northwestern. Just not "Pacific" Northwestern.

The Snake River drains to the Pacific. I don't see that there is any distinction between "Northwest" and "Pacific Northwest" when referring to the northwestern region of the current U.S. If you had said "The Northwest" in the early- to mid-1800s, most would have thought you were referring to Wisconsin, Michigan, Illinois, Indiana, and Ohio (and northeastern Minnesota), which prior to 1859 were the most "northwestern" states.

[Seacove]

Originally Posted by CrazyDonkey

The Snake River drains to the Pacific. I don't see that there is any distinction between "Northwest" and "Pacific Northwest" when referring to the northwestern region of the current U.S. If you had said "The Northwest" in the early- to mid-1800s, most would have thought you were referring to Wisconsin, Michigan, Illinois, Indiana, and Ohio (and northeastern Minnesota), which prior to 1859 were the most "northwestern" states.

I'll just disagree on this because, like the Colorado River, the Snake River is not the definition of the Pacific Northwest. If Idaho were part of Washington State, then you'd have a current definition that would apply. I say current because I still think it odd that Northwestern University is in Illinois.

[CrazyDonkey]

No doubt that some might have varying perceptions and impressions of what "Pacific Northwest" might mean or designate. Perspectives might differ between those who were born and bred here and those who learned of the area first from the outside. Usages change over time - a tourist arriving in Seattle on a cruise ship might not think of Pocatello as part of the same region as Seattle, but it is.

My perspective is that every general term for the area (Columbia District, Oregon Country/Territory, and Pacific Northwest) had the Continental Divide for its eastern border (east of which is the Louisiana Purchase) and California (Spanish/U.S.) for its southern border. It is the northern boundary that is somewhat variable and uncertain, sometimes including British Columbia, sometimes not. Awareness of the region as a piece preceded the drawing of territorial or state lines.

[PS90]

Originally Posted by CrazyDonkey

The Snake River drains to the Pacific. I don't see that there is any distinction between "Northwest" and "Pacific Northwest" when referring to the northwestern region of the current U.S. If you had said "The Northwest" in the early- to mid-1800s, most would have thought you were referring to Wisconsin, Michigan, Illinois, Indiana, and Ohio (and northeastern Minnesota), which prior to 1859 were the most "northwestern" states.

I completely agree with this. From what I remember, that's the whole reason that the "Pacific" part was added to "Northwest" - to designate the difference between the old "Northwest", as in, just Northwest of the Mid-West - and the actual Northwest of the continental US - i.e. WA, OR, ID, etc.

[Seacove]

Originally Posted by PS90

I completely agree with this. From what I remember, that's the whole reason that the "Pacific" part was added to "Northwest" - to designate the difference between the old "Northwest", as in, just Northwest of the Mid-West - and the actual Northwest of the continental US - i.e. WA, OR, ID, etc.

Since that was almost 200 years ago, we've had a lot of changes, Civil War and all that, it would be reasonable to define the Pacific Northwest by what is actually touching the Pacific Ocean. Idaho is much more like Montana and Northern Nevada, it does not touch the Pacific, and while it is Northwest on a map, it is not the "Pacific" Northwest.

[CrazyDonkey]

Originally Posted by Seacove

Since that was almost 200 years ago, we've had a lot of changes, Civil War and all that, it would be reasonable to define the Pacific Northwest by what is actually touching the Pacific Ocean. Idaho is much more like Montana and Northern Nevada, it does not touch the Pacific, and while it is Northwest on a map, it is not the "Pacific" Northwest.

You're free to define the term as you wish - these days, "Northwest" and "Pacific Northwest" are pretty much interchangeable. If you want to limit the application of the latter just to the west of the Cascades, as opposed to west of the Rockies, feel free - certainly that corresponds to what most outsiders think the NW is (wet and green, rather than dry and yellow).

I'm just pointing out that the term and its usage have a historical context and evolution. Having been born-and-bred (a vanishing species) in Washington state (Bellingham-Aberdeen-Seattle), I'm accustomed to living in a state with very different sides, but have never thought of the other side as not being part of the "Pacific" Northwest. While divided by the Cascades, they are united by the Columbia (and, by extension, the Snake). Without the Columbia, and the water and access to markets it provides, you could forget growing wheat, apples, hops, and wine grapes east of the Cascades.

[DBM]

A great book on the topic of our regional self-identification is Timothy Egan's, "The Good Rain" (The Good Rain: Across Time & Terrain in the Pacific Northwest by Timothy Egan). It's a quick read and I'd suggest it to anyone.

Here's what Egan says: "The Pacific Northwest is simply this: wherever the salmon can get to. Rivers without salmon have lost the life source of the area."

I tend to agree with him. Defining Colorado and Arizona by a common fish wouldn't make any sense at all, but salmon have been interwoven into the fabric of this region from time immemorial, and remain so. They reflect our history, our cool climate, our natural environment, and they are central to many of our environmental and economic challenges. Can't think of a better definition.

[Seacove]

CrazyDonkey, I totally get it and FWIW, I think you are a great poster.

[CanuckInPortland]

The stereotypical Pacific Northwest of the imagination basically ends at the crest of the Cascades in Oregon and Washington. Wenatchee or Spokane or Pendleton or Bend isn't really what people outside the area think of when they hear Pacific Northwest--maybe not even Southern Oregon which looks and feels different from NW Oregon. But Western Oregon and Western Washington is really a pretty modest-sized region--maybe smaller than New England.

Though considering the Columbia Basin region is fairly tied together economically(and in terms of power networks with the Bonneville Power Administration), I don't think it's that big a deal to interchangeably use Pacific Northwest or Northwest to describe the region. Outside of the Puget Sound area most of the population in Oregon and Washington doesn't live on Pacific Ocean connected bodies of salt water as it is.

[CrazyDonkey]

I also wonder whether the attachment of "Pacific" to the regional designation might have been at least partly due to the railroads - the Northern Pacific, specifically. Many of the Scandinavians who emigrated to the region (to become fishermen, loggers, mill-workers, farmers, etc.) would have come via rail from the "old" Northwest states (Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan, etc.) - "Pacific Northwest" would have been a way of marketing the destination to customers who would have associated "Northwest" with where they were from, rather than where they wanted to go. The NP also opened colonization offices in Germany and Scandinavia beginning in 1886.

Note that the Northern Pacific was the second transcontinental route to the Northwest. The first connected the Union Pacific's Oregon Short Line with the Oregon Railway and Navigation Company at the confluence of the Columbia and Snake Rivers (near Wallula), with Portland as the destination. It was the Northern Pacific, however, that connected the East directly with first Tacoma, and then Seattle, by tunneling through the Cascades.