The problems with light pollution (Seattle, Sammamish: renting, low crime, buying)

[509]

Originally Posted by Diana Holbrook

I admit it doesn't generally occur to me that people would be bothered. Most farms have some night lighting. I know I seem like a minority here, but I think most would be surprised at the anger about it.

Well, it cost me about 100,000 to move because ALL these folks moved in and were afraid of the dark. At some point you just give up. Is that enough money to get angry over??

When we moved into the neighborhood it was mainly the WWII generation and they shut their lights at night.
Then the mass migration of urban refugees started.....and they were afraid of the dark. In our county, YOU bought the streetlight from the PUD so most people did not bother. Well, the new folks did...and then the crime wave started....so they put in more lights!!! Anyway, you know the story.

So we ended up moving to a high end area of town. No streetlights. Most private homes had shielded lights.

Now we have subdivisions going in left and right, once again from the next urban refugee migration. The county does not require or put in streetlights. Once again, this group is doing its best to light up for no good reason.

AND yes, I do visit every area I plan a home purchase and check out the night lights. It is a deal breaker for me.

We got a place in Arizona. No streetlights and a county ordinance!! This will complement our solar house in the Northwest. You can't have a outside night light when you generate your own electricity from solar.

There are ECOLOGICAL, HUMAN HEALTH, SAFETY and PRIVATE PROPERTY RIGHTS for shielding lights. EPA is about to regulate nighttime lighting as a HUMAN HEALTH concern.

For those that don't believe in taking the simple step of shielding and reducing the wattage of outside lighting. In your house, just go remove ALL the shades from your lamps.

Now is that a more pleasant environment??

The anger is real. It cost me real money, for the simple reason people do not respect private property rights.

[pikabike]

Yes, and not just anger but dismay, for me. Dismay that people do not even want to think about light--ANY kind of light, any time--as anything but 100% good. I get it when someone has never thought about the matter, never read the materials that exist to "enlighten" the existing entrenched mindset, never seen examples comparing different ways of lighting. But once you have read the stuff with an open mind and seen how much better lighting can be with some simple and inexpensive changes, the notion should start changing into one that is not so black and white.

The denial that excessive light is not good, in the face of evidence to the contrary, seems like yet more cognitive dissonance.

Nobody is saying that lights should be eliminated, period. That would amount to saying "light is bad," yet "light is good" is not questioned. Both extremes are inaccurate and simplistic.

[Diana Holbrook]

I don't think people who become angry at the sight of streetlights ought to buy in suburban neighborhoods. If you feel this way, I recommend buying a little more property, so you don't have to be so close to other people. There's plenty of properties where you can sit by yourself in the dark and not see anyone... even if you're next door to me. Just seems like you'd be happier that way.

Good luck!

[pikabike]

Originally Posted by Diana Holbrook

I don't think people who become angry at the sight of streetlights ought to buy in suburban neighborhoods. If you feel this way, I recommend buying a little more property, so you don't have to be so close to other people. There's plenty of properties where you can sit by yourself in the dark and not see anyone... even if you're next door to me. Just seems like you'd be happier that way.

Good luck!

Hello, it is the big looms over bigger towns that are most bothersome. Nobody expects country darkness in towns or burbs. But the big looms are visible from more than 40 miles away. In our old home which WAS rural and benefitted from closeby mountain ridges, even there the metro loom was very noticeable in one direction. Look at maps showing lighting density over the US and you'll see how pervasive these looms are. Look at them at different zoom levels.

That still doesn't mean individual lighting is of no consequence.

As I keep restating, it is not "the sight of streetlights" that is so irritating (to me; I do not claim to represent any other poster). Streetlights are helpful to have in nonrural locations. The offensive light is the design that sprays light in all directions, including upward. That is what adds so much to the looms.

Please stop twisting what I say into something else. I am against light pollution, not light.

[Diana Holbrook]

Sorry Pikabike... you have been civil, and I don't mean to be uncivil with you That comment was mostly directed to the post above yours, and others that have gotten so angry with me. Thanks for posting and debating it, Pikabike, and trying to inform.


I think you can count it as a success that I do at least now understand that lighting is an issue for some... even if I really don't buy into its importance in the wider scheme of things. It is, I think, the very definition of a first-world problem, but I can see how it would be very important for stargazers and the placement of observatories.

I think I'll just leave it at that. Have a good day!

[PS90]

Originally Posted by 509

Well, it cost me about 100,000 to move because ALL these folks moved in and were afraid of the dark. At some point you just give up. Is that enough money to get angry over??

When we moved into the neighborhood it was mainly the WWII generation and they shut their lights at night.
Then the mass migration of urban refugees started.....and they were afraid of the dark. In our county, YOU bought the streetlight from the PUD so most people did not bother. Well, the new folks did...and then the crime wave started....so they put in more lights!!! Anyway, you know the story.

So we ended up moving to a high end area of town. No streetlights. Most private homes had shielded lights.

Now we have subdivisions going in left and right, once again from the next urban refugee migration. The county does not require or put in streetlights. Once again, this group is doing its best to light up for no good reason.

AND yes, I do visit every area I plan a home purchase and check out the night lights. It is a deal breaker for me.

We got a place in Arizona. No streetlights and a county ordinance!! This will complement our solar house in the Northwest. You can't have a outside night light when you generate your own electricity from solar.

There are ECOLOGICAL, HUMAN HEALTH, SAFETY and PRIVATE PROPERTY RIGHTS for shielding lights. EPA is about to regulate nighttime lighting as a HUMAN HEALTH concern.

For those that don't believe in taking the simple step of shielding and reducing the wattage of outside lighting. In your house, just go remove ALL the shades from your lamps.

Now is that a more pleasant environment??

The anger is real. It cost me real money, for the simple reason people do not respect private property rights.

Originally Posted by Diana Holbrook

I don't think people who become angry at the sight of streetlights ought to buy in suburban neighborhoods. If you feel this way, I recommend buying a little more property, so you don't have to be so close to other people. There's plenty of properties where you can sit by yourself in the dark and not see anyone... even if you're next door to me. Just seems like you'd be happier that way.

Good luck!

I don't have a dog in this fight, and haven't really been following this thread, but Diana, you clearly completely missed the point that "509" made.

He was obviously complaining because he lived in an area without light pollution, and then suffered because a bunch of urbanites moved in and created light pollution, yet you responded with a snide comment about not moving to an area where there are streetlights.

A civil debate (which you keep begging for here) is created by constructive discourse, and yet you drastically simplify and dismiss the reasons of people on the other side of the argument. That's no more civil than anyone else.

Okay. Sorry. Didn't mean to become the forum cops.

[Diana Holbrook]

I didn't miss it. He lived in a neighborhood and more people moved in. People didn't used to have a lot of lights on, in the 40s and 50s... and now they do. And he's so mad about the streetlights he had to move. Well, I suggested that if other people's lights are going to bother him, then maybe he should get a bigger piece of property where he doesn't have to see anyone else. That's just good advice! Living in close proximity to others generally means you have to be a little tolerant of the lights and noises of others. And towns and neighborhoods like streetlights. Not just ME - most people like them.

I'm just not jumping on the bandwagon that night lights are now a major urgent health and environmental catastrophe. Really? Granted, I'm being a little flippant, but some of these responses are just so over the top.

[MarciaMarshaMarcia]

^^Diana, from your posts here, it appears that 1. you really are not listening to people's concerns regarding light pollution 2. you like to stir the pot for no apparent reason & 3. you want it your way, regardless of how it effects others. Your profile states that you are a real state professional?? Hhmmmm...

pikabike, thank you for your suggestion; we did try to speak to our neighbors regarding their "nightlights" shining in our windows, but, like Diana, they want it their way, without regard for others, or their contribution to worldwide light pollution.

509, I feel your pain, glad you were able to escape it, someplace. However, for us, this IS our escape!

[Diana Holbrook]

You know what, I thought we'd have a bit of lighthearted conversation on this thread... but you guys are obviously taking a dim view of that.

It has nonetheless, been illuminating.

I have looked through my "real estate professionals" rulebook, and while I am duty-bound to extol the virtues of granite counter tops and stainless steel appliances (at least this year), I am not yet duty-bound to be anti-street light. Far from it! Good night lighting is considered, by most, to be a feature in a neighborhood. Not a detriment. I am sorry, but it's true.

Would it be any consolation to you if I told you my husband follows me around the house turning lights off? And that I hardly ever actually get "my way".

Peace... really. I keep trying to lighten the mood around here but you guys need to play along. Good night.

[Bruce Holbrook]

Originally Posted by Diana Holbrook

Would it be any consolation to you if I told you my husband follows me around the house turning lights off?

It's true, he does.