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Old 05-18-2016, 11:57 AM
 
21,989 posts, read 15,624,059 times
Reputation: 12943

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Quote:
Originally Posted by pikabike View Post
Hostility? Based on your posts here and elsewhere, you are the hostile one--in a passive-aggressive way, of course.

As for the reasons for unjustified shootings (i.e., not for defense), there are so many that you are not going to be able to pigeonhole them. Some are due to lack of training, some are impulsive domestic violence the same as strangling or suffocating (let's outlaw hands), some are real hatred which will find another outlet in the absence of guns, the list goes on.

But I would much, much, much rather be around a sober, clear-thinking person who happens to have a gun than a substance abuser, even an abuser who does not have a gun handy. It's the nut behind the wheel; the wheel could be a gun, a knife, two strong hands, steeltoed boots, a car, an accomplice, a hammer, a big rock...

But I don't go around worrying about those real possibilities, because I avoid substance abusers as much as possible. If you don't like being around people who *might* have guns, then stay in your safe Seattle bubble.

And to be clear, I am talking about handguns, not automatic weapons which are illegal anyway. If I saw someone toting one of those into a store, I would also leave. Even a rifle or shotgun brought into anything other than a hunting-related store would make me wonder. It would just stand out so much I would question the motive.
I have not shown hostility, simply data. I did not suggest anyone move, can you say the same?

I've seen the hands, cars, drugs arguments used endlessly. But the data shows time and again that more guns equal more gun deaths and states with the highest gun ownership have the highest gun deaths.

Bringing up steel-toed boots or rocks is meaningless. We do not have over 84,200 injuries and over 11,200 deaths annually from steel toed boots or rocks or hands, but we do from guns.

 
Old 05-18-2016, 12:46 PM
 
Location: Lake Country
1,961 posts, read 2,239,116 times
Reputation: 1830
Quote:
Originally Posted by PS90 View Post
Well said. It's easy to assume that all pro-gun people want to let everyone have access to machine guns and bazookas, but that's actually far from the truth. Just as most anti-gun people don't think guns should be banned, just more tightly controlled.

The problem is that all we ever hear about in the sensationalized media are the loud-mouths on each extreme.
Yup.

The bigger problem is that too many people actually believe that the loud-mouths on each extreme that they hear/read in that sensationalized media represent most people who are either pro or anti-gun. Really, anyone who believes what the media spouts these days on pretty much any controversial subject needs their head examined.
 
Old 05-18-2016, 12:53 PM
 
Location: Lake Country
1,961 posts, read 2,239,116 times
Reputation: 1830
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seacove View Post
Unfortunately the person I fear is the one that says he's preparing for a gun fight every time he leaves the house.

I don't doubt the desire for debate. Gun advocates really want everyone to love guns as much as they do.
Then you are fearing the criminal who carries. Not the law-abiding CC citizen.

And I, as a gun owner (does that make me your "gun advocate"?), do not care one iota whether you like guns or not. However I do care that you make illogical assumptions.
 
Old 05-18-2016, 12:57 PM
 
21,989 posts, read 15,624,059 times
Reputation: 12943
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jumpindogs View Post
Then you are fearing the criminal who carries. Not the law-abiding CC citizen.

And I, as a gun owner (does that make me your "gun advocate"?), do not care one iota whether you like guns or not. However I do care that you make illogical assumptions.
You're not my anything, you don't even live here, you live in Wisconsin. I posted states by gun ownership and states with highest gun deaths. Those are not assumptions, they are people killed by guns.
 
Old 05-18-2016, 01:23 PM
 
10 posts, read 14,790 times
Reputation: 25
Montana is #5 in the nation in gun deaths despite having only 1 million people? That is either ignorantly misleading or you are reprehensibly disingenuous. The "#5" ranking is per capita, which means you should have left out the part about only having one million people. You included both apples and oranges with your statement, and your entire argument. If you want apples to apples, try this on for size:

Wyoming and Washington D.C. compare favorably in total population. Wyoming has some of the most lax gun laws and highest gun ownership in the country yet only had 9 gun homicides in 2013. Washington D.C. has some of the most restrictive gun laws and lowest gun ownership and had 81 gun homicides the same year. In 2010 it was 5 gun homicides in Wyoming versus 99 gun homicides in D.C.

Not fair comparing a vast state like Wyoming to a tiny urban district like D.C.? No worse than what you did claiming Montana as #5 in homicides despite only 1 million people while failing to mention that it was the rate per capita, not total homicides.

How about this for a comparison, state to state: Montana has some of the most lax gun laws and highest rates of gun ownership. Rhode Island has some of the more restrictive gun laws and lowest gun ownership. The states rank 44th and 45th, respectively in terms of population, both with just over 1 million people. In 2013 Montana had 9 gun homicides versus 18 in Rhode Island. In 2012 is Montana 11, Rhode Island 18.

You can't willy nilly use "gun deaths" to make some larger point instead of parsing it by the actual relevant statistic of gun homicide (murder and manslaughter). A funny thing happens to your stats when suicide is removed from the equation. Consider your argument destroyed.

Murder is a disease of liberal urban cesspools, not of conservative, gun-toting rural America. Even those few conservatives that live in your liberal concrete jungles and own or pack generally are not the ones pulling the trigger. Here's a list of the most violent cities (population over 250,000) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ime_rate_(2014)

How many of those cities would you classify as conservative with a bunch of concealed carry permits? Tulsa, maybe. The rest? Liberal urban cesspools. And whether facts make you uncomfortable or not, I don't care, but the simple truth is that more than 50% of homicides in this country are committed by a tiny 6% portion of the population, young black males. Young black males aren't exactly what springs to mind when you think of conservative gun owners, now does it? Most of those homicides are committed by people who illegally obtained or possessed the gun they used. If we removed that 50% of all homicides in the U.S. from the equation, we'd have a remarkably reasonable homicide rate as compared to the rest of the world. Even as it is with all the stats just as they are, we are a far cry from places like Venezuela or Brazil which are 10, 20 or even nearly 30 times higher per capita.

Cue the "accidental shooting" argument.
 
Old 05-18-2016, 01:29 PM
 
21,989 posts, read 15,624,059 times
Reputation: 12943
Quote:
Originally Posted by finnegan View Post
Montana is #5 in the nation in gun deaths despite having only 1 million people? That is either ignorantly misleading or you are reprehensibly disingenuous. The "#5" ranking is per capita, which means you should have left out the part about only having one million people. You included both apples and oranges with your statement, and your entire argument. If you want apples to apples, try this on for size:

Wyoming and Washington D.C. compare favorably in total population. Wyoming has some of the most lax gun laws and highest gun ownership in the country yet only had 9 gun homicides in 2013. Washington D.C. has some of the most restrictive gun laws and lowest gun ownership and had 81 gun homicides the same year. In 2010 it was 5 gun homicides in Wyoming versus 99 gun homicides in D.C.

Not fair comparing a vast state like Wyoming to a tiny urban district like D.C.? No worse than what you did claiming Montana as #5 in homicides despite only 1 million people while failing to mention that it was the rate per capita, not total homicides.

How about this for a comparison, state to state: Montana has some of the most lax gun laws and highest rates of gun ownership. Rhode Island has some of the more restrictive gun laws and lowest gun ownership. The states rank 44th and 45th, respectively in terms of population, both with just over 1 million people. In 2013 Montana had 9 gun homicides versus 18 in Rhode Island. In 2012 is Montana 11, Rhode Island 18.

You can't willy nilly use "gun deaths" to make some larger point instead of parsing it by the actual relevant statistic of gun homicide (murder and manslaughter). A funny thing happens to your stats when suicide is removed from the equation. Consider your argument destroyed.

Murder is a disease of liberal urban cesspools, not of conservative, gun-toting rural America. Even those few conservatives that live in your liberal concrete jungles and own or pack generally are not the ones pulling the trigger. Here's a list of the most violent cities (population over 250,000) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ime_rate_(2014)

How many of those cities would you classify as conservative with a bunch of concealed carry permits? Tulsa, maybe. The rest? Liberal urban cesspools. And whether facts make you uncomfortable or not, I don't care, but the simple truth is that more than 50% of homicides in this country are committed by a tiny 6% portion of the population, young black males. Young black males aren't exactly what springs to mind when you think of conservative gun owners, now does it? Most of those homicides are committed by people who illegally obtained or possessed the gun they used. If we removed that 50% of all homicides in the U.S. from the equation, we'd have a remarkably reasonable homicide rate as compared to the rest of the world. Even as it is with all the stats just as they are, we are a far cry from places like Venezuela or Brazil which are 10, 20 or even nearly 30 times higher per capita.

Cue the "accidental shooting" argument.
Montana is ranked #5 in gun deaths per capita and the charts are clearly marked as such. And as uncomfortable as you may find it, The rankings show that red states as a group are higher than blue states. Saying we are better than Venezuela and Brazil? That sounds like a desperate comparison.
Attached Thumbnails
Gun laws, front license plates, & race ways-gundeaths.jpg  
 
Old 05-18-2016, 01:39 PM
 
Location: Lake Country
1,961 posts, read 2,239,116 times
Reputation: 1830
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seacove View Post
You're not my anything, you don't even live here, you live in Wisconsin. I posted states by gun ownership and states with highest gun deaths. Those are not assumptions, they are people killed by guns.
But I am a WA property owner, pay WA property tax (thus pay for WA public schools, fire protection, libraries, parks and recreation, etc) and will live "here" soon. However, perhaps I misunderstood you. You're now saying that only gun advocates who reside in WA want everyone to love guns as much as they do? Or that you don't care at all whether gun advocates in other states want everyone to love guns as much as they do? Otherwise I can't see how my current state of residence matters to the discussion of this undeniably national issue and your claim that "Gun advocates really want everyone to love guns as much as they do." My state of residence obviously means a great deal to you since you underlined your comment for emphasis. Hmmmm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seacove
Unfortunately the person I fear is the one that says he's preparing for a gun fight every time he leaves the house.

I don't doubt the desire for debate. Gun advocates really want everyone to love guns as much as they do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jumpindogs
Then you are fearing the criminal who carries. Not the law-abiding CC citizen.

And I, as a gun owner (does that make me your "gun advocate"?), do not care one iota whether you like guns or not. However I do care that you make illogical assumptions.

This is the assumption of yours I was responding to. I hadn't gotten as far as your state statistics yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seacove
Awesome, a life where everyone holsters up before leaving the house and shoots at the slightest provocation.
 
Old 05-18-2016, 01:48 PM
 
6,304 posts, read 8,980,448 times
Reputation: 8149
Quote:
Originally Posted by pikabike View Post
If you don't like being around people who *might* have guns, then stay in your safe Seattle bubble.
What a splendid idea.

(Assuming, of course, that no one carries in Seattle. )
 
Old 05-18-2016, 01:51 PM
 
21,989 posts, read 15,624,059 times
Reputation: 12943
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jumpindogs View Post
But I am a WA property owner, pay WA property tax (thus pay for WA public schools, fire protection, libraries, parks and recreation, etc) and will live "here" soon. However, perhaps I misunderstood you. You're now saying that only gun advocates who reside in WA want everyone to love guns as much as they do? Or that you don't care at all whether gun advocates in other states want everyone to love guns as much as they do? Otherwise I can't see how my current state of residence matters to the discussion of this undeniably national issue and your claim that "Gun advocates really want everyone to love guns as much as they do." My state of residence obviously means a great deal to you since you underlined your comment for emphasis. Hmmmm.
This began as a response to someone asking how guns are received in Western Washington. I responded. Several from Eastern Washington predictably responded plus a couple from small Western WA towns like the one last night from Rochester. I said I find the person that needs a gun everywhere they go unstable (I also highlighted the gentleman that brought a gun to a movie theater because guns and a stupid texting argument resulted in a father's death, which will probably be excused because Stand Your Ground = fear of popcorn). I posted states by gun ownership and gun deaths by state. The OP was from Montana so I highlighted Montana. I'm sure we will get responses from other states because guns. It doesn't change the statistics which show states with higher gun ownership typically result in higher gun deaths.

Last edited by Seacove; 05-18-2016 at 02:18 PM..
 
Old 05-18-2016, 01:54 PM
 
6,304 posts, read 8,980,448 times
Reputation: 8149
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seacove View Post
This began as a response to someone asking how guns are received in Western Washington. I responded. Several from Eastern Washington predictably responded plus a couple from small Western WA towns like the one last night from Rochester.
This is interesting. You are speaking like you know exactly where people who disagree with you are from and what their experiences are.

Interesting, yet not surprising.
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