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Old 03-17-2011, 08:39 PM
 
Location: Vancouver, BC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom77falcons View Post
To me citrus is the quintessential sub-tropical crop. Likes a little bit of cold but not severe cold. The SE USA, despite averages that say otherwise, gets too cold in winter to grow this crop. Almost every other sub-tropical region can grow citrus except the SE US, at least commercially. I stand by my subjective view that most of the SE USA is not sub-tropical simply because they get such hard freezes every single winter and it is not fleeting. Charleston has almost 30 nights of freezing temps every winter. Not fleeting in my opinion. How many nights does southern Italy or southern Spain go below freezing? I have a feeling it is less than Charleston or for sure less than the inland south like Columbia SC.
Naples, Italy gets about 10 freezing nights a year. It's almost at 41 N latitude. Yearly average of 61F

Weatherbase: Historical Weather for Naples, Italy - Travel, Vacation and Reference Information


Valencia, Spain gets about 6 freezing nights a year. It's at 39N latitude. Yearly average of 63F

Weatherbase: Historical Weather for Valencia, Spain - Travel, Vacation and Reference Information


This isn't even the furthest south in these countries.
If we go further south, it's even less.
Palermo, Italy at 38N has only had probably a dozen frosts in its history and its' record low is only -1.9C (28.5F) and a yearly average of 66F.

Malaga, Spain at 36N averages 1 frost a year and has a yearly average of 64F



So, definitely a lot milder in winter and more conducive to producing citrus than places like Columbia, SC and Atlanta, GA which are both further south in Latitude than all these places.
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Old 03-17-2011, 09:13 PM
 
Location: Mid Atlantic USA
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So Valencia, Spain doesn't meet the technical 65 degree average yearly temp to be sub-tropical. I've been there and I don't give a darn what averages say, the place is a heck of a lot more sub-tropical than almost anywhere in SC, GA, MS, etc. It has warm summers and very mild winters. A place like Columbia has hot summers, but when you walk out of your house on a winter morning and it is in the low teens, you certainly won't feel you are in a sub-tropical climate. Which climate would you rather be in?
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Old 03-17-2011, 10:02 PM
 
Location: USA East Coast
4,445 posts, read 4,676,665 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom77falcons View Post
So Valencia, Spain doesn't meet the technical 65 degree average yearly temp to be sub-tropical. I've been there and I don't give a darn what averages say, the place is a heck of a lot more sub-tropical than almost anywhere in SC, GA, MS, etc. It has warm summers and very mild winters. A place like Columbia has hot summers, but when you walk out of your house on a winter morning and it is in the low teens, you certainly won't feel you are in a sub-tropical climate. Which climate would you rather be in?
Just another climate note: 65 F (18 C) is not the threshold for a subtropical climate...it is for a tropical climate (Ar, Aw, Am).

The Definition for Subtropical (Cs, Cf, CW) is 8 months (or more) with a mean temp of 50 F (10 C).


http://www.ukraine.darmowawyszukiwarkamp3.zarow.pl/p-Koppen_climate_classification#Trewartha_climate_cl assification_scheme (broken link)

Last edited by wavehunter007; 03-17-2011 at 10:14 PM..
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Old 03-17-2011, 11:08 PM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,693 posts, read 19,117,795 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wavehunter007 View Post
Just another climate note: 65 F (18 C) is not the threshold for a subtropical climate...it is for a tropical climate (Ar, Aw, Am).

The Definition for Subtropical (Cs, Cf, CW) is 8 months (or more) with a mean temp of 50 F (10 C).


Koppen climate classification (http://www.ukraine.darmowawyszukiwarkamp3.zarow.pl/p-Koppen_climate_classification#Trewartha_climate_cl assification_scheme - broken link)
Like Chester said I think 18C (65F) is probably a more 'meaningful' threshold to use to categorise a climate as being 'sub-tropical' as if the above definition were used, even a place like Hobart, Tasmania is 'sub-tropical'. 18C would also include semi-alpine climates in the sub-tropical latitudes to quite a high altitude, and would include cities like Perth, Charleston, Heraklion, Guangzhou and Port Elizabeth, South Africa.
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Old 03-17-2011, 11:10 PM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,693 posts, read 19,117,795 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom77falcons View Post
So Valencia, Spain doesn't meet the technical 65 degree average yearly temp to be sub-tropical. I've been there and I don't give a darn what averages say, the place is a heck of a lot more sub-tropical than almost anywhere in SC, GA, MS, etc. It has warm summers and very mild winters. A place like Columbia has hot summers, but when you walk out of your house on a winter morning and it is in the low teens, you certainly won't feel you are in a sub-tropical climate. Which climate would you rather be in?
I don't know, I think of a place like Savannah or New Orleans as more truly sub-tropical as Valencia or any Mediterranean climate. While Mediterranean climates may be sub-tropical in terms of warmth, I associate warmth/humidity and rain at the same time with the tropics, and lush vegetation (although I'm not using this as a measure). In some ways the cool season rainfall in these west coast climates makes them sort of similar to the temperate maritime climates of Britain or say New Zealand.
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Old 03-17-2011, 11:11 PM
 
Location: Mid Atlantic USA
5,883 posts, read 2,934,072 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wavehunter007 View Post
Just another climate note: 65 F (18 C) is not the threshold for a subtropical climate...it is for a tropical climate (Ar, Aw, Am).

The Definition for Subtropical (Cs, Cf, CW) is 8 months (or more) with a mean temp of 50 F (10 C).


Koppen climate classification (http://www.ukraine.darmowawyszukiwarkamp3.zarow.pl/p-Koppen_climate_classification#Trewartha_climate_cl assification_scheme - broken link)
Who would have thought Tulsa, OK is sub-tropical. And DC too since November averages 49.5. With these towns, sub-tropical classifications have lost all meaning to me. I'll stick with my own subjective warm/hot summers and mild (stable mid to high 50's on the lower end) winters.
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Old 03-17-2011, 11:14 PM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,693 posts, read 19,117,795 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom77falcons View Post
Who would have thought Tulsa, OK is sub-tropical. And DC too since November averages 49.5. With these towns, sub-tropical classifications have lost all meaning to me. I'll stick with my own subjective warm/hot summers and mild (stable mid to high 50's on the lower end) winters.
Subjectively I think of 'sub-tropical' as a place that has some seasonality in temperatures (unlike the tropics) but is mostly warm to hot, probably more than 8-9 months of the year. It can get pretty cold, but coldness is not a regular feature of its winter, and its summer is at least very warm (above 22C).
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Old 03-17-2011, 11:21 PM
 
Location: Mid Atlantic USA
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Average low in Tulsa in Jan is 26F, 31F in Feb. 72 days a year less than 32. Not sub-tropical to me. These classifications are meaningless to the average guy on the street. I don't know of anyone in this country that would consider Tulsa, OK to be sub-tropical. Clearly there is something awry with the classification system. It needs refining, especially when applied to N. America.
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Old 03-17-2011, 11:25 PM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,693 posts, read 19,117,795 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom77falcons View Post
Average low in Tulsa in Jan is 26F, 31F in Feb. 72 days a year less than 32. Not sub-tropical to me. These classifications are meaningless to the average guy on the street. I don't know of anyone in this country that would consider Tulsa, OK to be sub-tropical. Clearly there is something awry with the classification system. It needs refining, especially when applied to N. America.
Yeah it's funny how Tulsa or somewhere like Nanjing is sometimes considered sub-tropical when their winters are worse than somewhere like London.
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Old 03-18-2011, 12:21 AM
 
Location: New York City
2,789 posts, read 2,862,845 times
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Talk about beating a dead horse.

Personally I'm fine with scientific definitions of words not being the same as how they are used colloquially.
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