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Old 04-02-2011, 06:57 PM
 
Location: Vancouver, BC
5,526 posts, read 3,710,069 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asagi View Post
My post does not disagree with your theory, obviously if they only grow for 20 years on the island it doesn't meet your 100 year standard. I had already replied to your first post about the Coconut Palms not thriving (according to your definition) on the island. Then you continued to say they don't thrive there even though I already agreed with you.
I must have missed that part...
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Old 04-03-2011, 02:17 AM
 
Location: Mid Atlantic USA
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There is a simple reason that you don't see them all over the place in S. TX as you do in S. Fl. I don't believe that S. FL has ever, ever had a day where the temp did not go above freezing during daylight hours. I'll bet that has never happened in S. Fl for at least the last 100 years. But it certainly did this year in S. Texas. Brownsville and S. Padre Island were below freezing for like 24 hours. In a nutshell, that is why you don't see coconut palms in S. Texas. Nothing at all to block or hinder the arctic air. Oh and a number of meteo's are saying that we have had some mild winters and we are heading back into 1989 style cold. If that is the case, you most certainly can kiss the 10 in Brownsville, and the 10 on SPI goodbye.
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Old 04-03-2011, 11:12 AM
 
Location: Katy, Texas
854 posts, read 683,606 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom77falcons View Post
There is a simple reason that you don't see them all over the place in S. TX as you do in S. Fl. I don't believe that S. FL has ever, ever had a day where the temp did not go above freezing during daylight hours. I'll bet that has never happened in S. Fl for at least the last 100 years. But it certainly did this year in S. Texas. Brownsville and S. Padre Island were below freezing for like 24 hours. In a nutshell, that is why you don't see coconut palms in S. Texas. Nothing at all to block or hinder the arctic air. Oh and a number of meteo's are saying that we have had some mild winters and we are heading back into 1989 style cold. If that is the case, you most certainly can kiss the 10 in Brownsville, and the 10 on SPI goodbye.
Okay, so why do they line the beaches with Coconuts 30 miles south in Mexico? If they were more available, you would see them everywhere to the extent of somewhere like Siesta Key, but sadly they aren't. Either way, both areas are taking a risk, but the latter has a greater number of Coconuts leading you to believe they thrive there. I suppose you're saying Coconut Palms don't grow in somewhere like Taiwan and the Ryukyu Islands because it's to cold there, but I've seen fruiting 60 footers. It's more a matter of culture and availability there because even though the climate is more akin to Southeast Asia (proven by the flora and fauna), the people there are culturally tied to Japan and eastern China.
I suppose we can believe the meteorologists and their theories on global warming. Maybe it doesn't make a difference but there are probably more then 50 Coconut Palms scattered around Brownsville and another 20 or so on the coast.
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Old 04-03-2011, 10:37 PM
 
Location: Mid Atlantic USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asagi View Post
Okay, so why do they line the beaches with Coconuts 30 miles south in Mexico? If they were more available, you would see them everywhere to the extent of somewhere like Siesta Key, but sadly they aren't. Either way, both areas are taking a risk, but the latter has a greater number of Coconuts leading you to believe they thrive there. I suppose you're saying Coconut Palms don't grow in somewhere like Taiwan and the Ryukyu Islands because it's to cold there, but I've seen fruiting 60 footers. It's more a matter of culture and availability there because even though the climate is more akin to Southeast Asia (proven by the flora and fauna), the people there are culturally tied to Japan and eastern China.
I suppose we can believe the meteorologists and their theories on global warming. Maybe it doesn't make a difference but there are probably more then 50 Coconut Palms scattered around Brownsville and another 20 or so on the coast.
Because those 30 miles makes all the difference. Why do they grow in St. Pete Fl, and 30 miles inland they do not. Maybe 30 mile s of SPI is the northern limit of coco palms. If they could grow in SPI easily they would be cultivated there by nurseries. The fact that nurseries can't be bothered says it all. They are not meant to grow there, and every few years mother nature takes care of that. People trying to grow coco palms there are fighting a head wind that will always win. SPI does not have a tropical climate, and certainly does not have a stable sub-tropical climate due to the artic outbreaks. Hence, coco palms don't survive there. Here is what wiki has to say about it:

"The only places in the U.S. where coconut palms can be grown and reproduced outdoors without irrigation are Hawaii, south Florida and the U.S. territories of Puerto Rico, Guam, American Samoa, Virgin Islands and the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands. Coconut palms will grow from coastal Pinellas County and St. Petersburg southwards on Florida's west coast, and Melbourne southwards on Florida's east coast."

and this:

"They may likewise be grown in favored microclimates in the Rio Grande Valley area of Deep South Texas near Brownsville and on the upper northeast Texas Coast at Galveston Island. They may reach fruiting maturity, but are damaged or killed by the occasional winter freezes in these areas."

So, those that do grow in SPI are in very special micro-climate areas. Hence as deneb78 said, babied. And they are ususally killed off at some point. There is no point in arguing this over and over. The bottom line is that if they were meant to grow there, they would be all over the place. In reality, they only survive in very specialized cases and even those are killed off as in 1989. You won't convince me otherwise, coco palms are not meant to be grown in S. Texas.
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Old 04-08-2011, 06:11 PM
 
Location: Katy, Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom77falcons View Post
Because those 30 miles makes all the difference. Why do they grow in St. Pete Fl, and 30 miles inland they do not. Maybe 30 mile s of SPI is the northern limit of coco palms. If they could grow in SPI easily they would be cultivated there by nurseries. The fact that nurseries can't be bothered says it all. They are not meant to grow there, and every few years mother nature takes care of that. People trying to grow coco palms there are fighting a head wind that will always win. SPI does not have a tropical climate, and certainly does not have a stable sub-tropical climate due to the artic outbreaks. Hence, coco palms don't survive there. Here is what wiki has to say about it:

"The only places in the U.S. where coconut palms can be grown and reproduced outdoors without irrigation are Hawaii, south Florida and the U.S. territories of Puerto Rico, Guam, American Samoa, Virgin Islands and the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands. Coconut palms will grow from coastal Pinellas County and St. Petersburg southwards on Florida's west coast, and Melbourne southwards on Florida's east coast."

and this:

"They may likewise be grown in favored microclimates in the Rio Grande Valley area of Deep South Texas near Brownsville and on the upper northeast Texas Coast at Galveston Island. They may reach fruiting maturity, but are damaged or killed by the occasional winter freezes in these areas."

So, those that do grow in SPI are in very special micro-climate areas. Hence as deneb78 said, babied. And they are ususally killed off at some point. There is no point in arguing this over and over. The bottom line is that if they were meant to grow there, they would be all over the place. In reality, they only survive in very specialized cases and even those are killed off as in 1989. You won't convince me otherwise, coco palms are not meant to be grown in S. Texas.
As you saw with this January's freeze, those blue northerners don't just stop on the border. Matamoros and Brownsville have the same climate but completely different looks (including urban vegetation). However almost all flora and fauna native to Matamoros is native to Brownsville, including some very tropical species that reach their northern boundary in that area such as the Mexican Palmetto (Sabal mexicana) and the Red Crowned Amazon Parrot (Amazona viridigenalis).

I suppose you can trust Wikipedia, but Coconut Palms are not fully hardy in St Petersburg or Melbourne, they all died in 1989. They majority of them were killed as far south as Vero Beach. Even Coconut Palms in the Soto la Marina area of Mexico were killed in 1989 and that's south of the Tropic of Cancer at sea level.

If you don't believe me here are how 20+ year old coconut palms in St. Petersburg, Florida look after the 2010 freeze not even near the magnitude of 1989. Most younger palms died.

Before winter


After

Source: South Texas Palms - PalmTalk(you can also see my Coconut pictures at the top of the thread).

St. Petersburg and South Padre Island are neck and neck climate wise. They've both recorded 2 freezes since 1989 and can grow coconut palms between those type of freezes.
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Old 04-08-2011, 11:17 PM
 
Location: Mid Atlantic USA
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The photos of the post-damaged palms in St. Petersburg look a heck of a lot more alive than the photos posted of SPI. Can you post a pic of coco palms that large in SPI, instead of two little ones right up against the south side of a house?

May I suggest you go into this link:

SOD USA Climate Archive State Selection Map

click on Port Isabel and St. Petersburg. There is an SPI site, but the data is only from 1992 on. The other sites have data from 1890's to 2010.
St. Pete Jan average high=70.5, low=54.4. For Port Isabel Jan=68 high and 53.5 low. Close but St. Pete is def warmer. However the extemes tell a whole diff story. The extreme low for Jan in St. Pete is 27 on Jan 21st, 1985 and 28 in Feb of 1917. The extreme low for Port Isabel is 22 in Jan of 1962, and 23 in Feb of 1951. It can get much colder in S. Texas, and the diff between 27 and 22 is way enough to kill a coco palm in one (22), and just damage in another (27).

Again, I might believe if I saw more than a couple pics of large fruiting coco palms on SPI that weren't in sheltered areas. I keep seeing the same two small coco palms in the area.
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Old 04-08-2011, 11:39 PM
 
Location: Katy, Texas
854 posts, read 683,606 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom77falcons View Post
The photos of the post-damaged palms in St. Petersburg look a heck of a lot more alive than the photos posted of SPI. Can you post a pic of coco palms that large in SPI, instead of two little ones right up against the south side of a house?

May I suggest you go into this link:

SOD USA Climate Archive State Selection Map

click on Port Isabel and St. Petersburg. There is an SPI site, but the data is only from 1992 on. The other sites have data from 1890's to 2010.
St. Pete Jan average high=70.5, low=54.4. For Port Isabel Jan=68 high and 53.5 low. Close but St. Pete is def warmer. However the extemes tell a whole diff story. The extreme low for Jan in St. Pete is 27 on Jan 21st, 1985 and 28 in Feb of 1917. The extreme low for Port Isabel is 22 in Jan of 1962, and 23 in Feb of 1951. It can get much colder in S. Texas, and the diff between 27 and 22 is way enough to kill a coco palm in one (22), and just damage in another (27).

Again, I might believe if I saw more than a couple pics of large fruiting coco palms on SPI that weren't in sheltered areas. I keep seeing the same two small coco palms in the area.
The "Port Isabel" airport is actually 8 miles inland on the mainland and is almost always 2 degrees colder unless there's a rare radiational freeze like this year. Also, the airport for St. Petersburg (Albert Whitted) is literally sitting in Tampa Bay. Most of St. Petersburg recorded a low of 28F while the airport dropped to only 33F.
Examples of fruiting Coconut Palms in Texas:






Coconut Palms in South Texas - PalmTalk
Texas palms - PalmTalk
Port Isabel-South Padre Island, Texas: Summer, 2008 and Summer, 2010 (Hurricane Alex) Photo Gallery by Gene Paull at pbase.com
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Old 04-09-2011, 12:03 AM
 
Location: Vancouver, BC
5,526 posts, read 3,710,069 times
Reputation: 1976
The cocos in St. Petersburg definitely look taller than the ones in SPI. It must mean that the coconuts are able to live longer in St. Petersburg and don't have to be replanted as often as in SPI due to killing freezes that occur less often.
I still agree with tom77falcons on this one. Unless it's a microclimate or offer some kind of protection, coconuts will not last long term in South Texas and will never grow very tall due to killing freezes that happen every 10 to 20 years or so.
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Old 04-09-2011, 09:54 AM
 
Location: Katy, Texas
854 posts, read 683,606 times
Reputation: 353

South Padre has only had TWO freezes since 1989 that's exactly the same as St. Petersburg. Coconut Palms are not long term in either places but South Padre isn't as cold as you make it out to be. Another factor to be taken under consideration is that South Padre warms up much faster in the spring, almost to the South Florida extent. The average low so far this month is 71F in South Padre and only 63F in St. Petersburg. The average low for March was 69F in South Padre and 60F in St. Petersburg. Both places may not have had normal winters, but South Padre's average January low was 57F while St. Petersburg's was 50F. Even in February where South Padre had a day with a high of only 32F, St. Petersburg's average low was only 2 degrees warmer then South Padre's (56 to 54). St. Petersburg's average highs do tend to be 1-3 degrees warmer then South Padre's but that is because South Padre is open to the Gulf while St. Petersburg sits by Tampa Bay. A bit inland in Brownsville, the average winter highs match St. Petersburg's but of course the average lows drop by a bit too.

I forgot to show how that pair looked like after 2011...

That pair of Coconut Palms in St. Petersburg were planted right after 1989 (when 99% of all Coconut Palms were killed there) at an arboretum so they have the advantage of being older (hardy).
Still recovering after a cool winter (2011)

CFPACS :: View topic - Jamaica Talls hangin' in there at Kopsick Arboretum (http://www.ramcort.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9744&sid=b605092f4af0fdc74b96660e9 2289b00 - broken link)
This is how younger palms looked like after 2010 in St. Petersburg

Coconut palms in Southern St. Petersburg, FL - PalmTalk
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Old 04-09-2011, 09:55 AM
 
Location: Mid Atlantic USA
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Denb78 and I are in complete agreement on this one. Those are the same three very small coco palms living in sheltered areas. They don't compare to many I have seen in Fort Pierce, Jupiter, Melbourne or St. Pete that were huge in comparison. Until I see pics of 25 feet tall coco palms laden with coconuts I won't believe. Maybe I'll have to go there myself and check. I think you are nitpicking temps between SPI and St. Pete. The std deviation is lower in St. Pete than SPI, meaning S. Texas goes further below the avg lows than Fl. St. Pete is warmer than S. Texas.
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