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We have beaten this to death…but I agree with txsizzler …subtropical classification isn't "stretching" it at all for S. Texas. True, south Texas is not a mild as south Florida, and south Florida doesn’t see the lower numbers that south Texas will when the severe cold snaps strike, but south Texas is easily a subtropical climate. It is a bit unfair to take a few days out of the year and use to as a way to classify a climate…and disregard the other 360 days on the year (lol). The winter monsoon in subtropical East Asia and the southern USA (from CA to SC)…allow for cold fronts to sweep down from the higher land areas of these countries once or twice a year and drop temps down into subtropical latitudes for a day or two before the front pushes off the mainland.
Also, it is a bit unfair to take this past Dec in cities like Phoenix, Corpus Christi, Charleston…etc and hold it up as normal or average temps for winter. Some of these cities saw their coldest December in 50 years. If you use upper 50’s as a definition of highs in subtropical climates…then everywhere from Central California… though the Desert Southwest…eastward through the coastal plain of the Gulf states to eastern South Carolina would be subtropical since they have normal December highs above 55 F.
As to temps in the 30’s /frosts …it is also untrue that locations in other parts of the world in subtropical latitudes (and even the northern margin of the tropics) have never seen temps in the 30’s. Places like Hanoi, Vietnam (36 F), Naples, Italy (24 F), New Delhi (30 F)…etc have seen temps in the 20’s and 30’s before. Should these areas not be considered subtropical/northern tropical?
Old Koppen said it best when someone noted that there have been days above 75 F above the Arctic Circle: The one or two day anomaly doesn’t determine the general climate of any region.
It's typical Mediterranean to me. 40 degrees N, and January averages 13/4 (C) with plenty of rain. It's considered part of Africa by northern Italians, but that's another story...
It's typical Mediterranean to me. 40 degrees N, and January averages 13/4 (C) with plenty of rain. It's considered part of Africa by northern Italians, but that's another story...
The coldest half of the year is similar to here for average temps, although our mins are lower and our winters are sunnier. The warmest half is a different story though.
It's typical Mediterranean to me. 40 degrees N, and January averages 13/4 (C) with plenty of rain. It's considered part of Africa by northern Italians, but that's another story...
Aren't Mediterranean climates considered the dry-summer form of a subtropical climate (under the Koppen system)?
Most of the discussion seems use subtropical to refer to humid subtropical climates as the "exemplar" (although sometimes southern California or the southwest is considered as subtropical in wording).
If you think about it, many hot summer (like Rome, not like San Fransisco) Mediterranean climates would make very good exemplars of the stereotypical image of "subtropical climate" temps-wise, if not for rainfall, because they have consistently hot summer highs of around 80F/26C to 85F/30C or so and they're the ones whose vegetation (olives, citrus, date palms) are being discussed as the standard for surviving that climate in the US!
Aren't Mediterranean climates considered the dry-summer form of a subtropical climate (under the Koppen system)?
Most of the discussion seems use subtropical to refer to humid subtropical climates as the "exemplar" (although sometimes southern California or the southwest is considered as subtropical in wording).
If you think about it, many hot summer (like Rome, not like San Fransisco) Mediterranean climates would make very good exemplars of the stereotypical image of "subtropical climate" temps-wise, if not for rainfall, because they have consistently hot summer highs of around 80F/26C to 85F/30C or so and they're the ones whose vegetation (olives, citrus, date palms) are being discussed as the standard for surviving that climate in the US!
I think it was generally agreed upon that for a climate to be truly subtropical, you have to to have 8 months of the year that average 10C (50F) or higher and have a yearly average temperature greater than 16C (60F).
I think Koppen labelling the "Csb" as subtropical was a bit of a misnomer as some places which under Koppen would qualify as "Csb" such as Victoria, BC and Seattle, WA are clearly not.
You'd be surprised about how hardy olives, citrus and date palms are. Certain varieties can easily survive in warm temperate climates and are not strictly subtropical. Certain citrus hybrids can survive down to -10C or even lower without much of a problem. Olives are even grown in sheltered locations on Saltspring Island, BC. Date palms are also hardy down to around -7C and can be grown in places as far north as coastal southern Oregon without protection.
In South Texas, I've seen many pictures of Date palms and other palm trees. I doubt this short lived cold snap will do anything to them. Coconut palms on the other hand still remains to be seen....
You'd be surprised about how hardy olives, citrus and date palms are. Certain varieties can easily survive in warm temperate climates and are not strictly subtropical. Certain citrus hybrids can survive down to -10C or even lower without much of a problem. Olives are even grown in sheltered locations on Saltspring Island, BC. Date palms are also hardy down to around -7C and can be grown in places as far north as coastal southern Oregon without protection.
That's pretty interesting, but don't those fruits need sorts of hot sunny summers to grow well? Perhaps they're grown more of as ornamentals in the more maritime climates?
You're underestimating how much cold coconut palms can really take. The coconut palms died in Vero Beach becuase of last years freeze which already crippled them, this year was just the final blow. I visited South Padre last summer and the coconut palms were nearly untouched and were even fruiting by the 32F they had. Mature Coconut Palms survived 28F in St. Petersburg last year and will likely recover. Port Isabel bottumed out at 29F yesterday so South Padre probably saw 31F and will likely see 33F today followed by a quick warmup into the 70s, keen for survival. Deep South Texas is definitely subtropical, though not on the South Florida level. It has more in common with the St. Petersburg-Tampa-Orlando area, citurs is also damaged in these areas every 20 years or so, but they remain warm enough for coconut palms to live in between the freeze intervels, which is the same situation Brownsville-South Padre has.
You're underestimating how much cold coconut palms can really take. The coconut palms died in Vero Beach becuase of last years freeze which already crippled them, this year was just the final blow. I visited South Padre last summer and the coconut palms were nearly untouched and were even fruiting by the 32F they had. Mature Coconut Palms survived 28F in St. Petersburg last year and will likely recover. Port Isabel bottumed out at 29F yesterday so South Padre probably saw 31F and will likely see 33F today followed by a quick warmup into the 70s, keen for survival. Deep South Texas is definitely subtropical, though not on the South Florida level. It has more in common with the St. Petersburg-Tampa-Orlando area, citurs is also damaged in these areas every 20 years or so, but they remain warm enough for coconut palms to live in between the freeze intervels, which is the same situation Brownsville-South Padre has.
Wow…I was just about to say the same thing (lol).
Coconut palms …and even citrus are much tougher than many people give them credit for. I have a small hot house, and as the costs of electricty has risen here in the states, I have had to experiment with cooler and cooler nights in the greenhouse (now in the mid 40’s (F). I have a few potted citrus trees, and a few truly tropical palms like Cuban Royal Palms (brought up from southern Florida)…and several times each winter the low in the greenhouse has fallen to 27 – 31 F (-3 to -1 C) for a few hours and the plants seem fine (only tip and margin burn). Of course during a sunny day it hits 85 F in the hot house, so they get a lot of heat…and that might be the difference. I read that coconut palms need a long season of hot weather to fend off diseases and stem rot during the few frosty nights. So I think this also helps them in places like coastal south Texas and other areas that subject to a cold shot once or twice a year., but are otherwise hot climates.
I really think the coconut palms will be fine on South Padre Island…but it will be an interesting test. If they survive, I might try one in the greenhouse. Then I can really torture one...and see how much they can take.
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