Bye Bye to Coconut Palms on South Padre Island (frost, freeze, USA)
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But maybe what's unique about North America isn't its average winter temps but its extreme cold snaps.
I remember that statement from browsing a climate book by Trewartha (I think he's a climatologist that developed some modifications to Koppen's way of classifying) and he said something to that nature (that subtropical east Asia is most unusual for cold averages for its latitude but north America is the most unusual for the record cold snaps much colder than its averages).
On another note, I've heard that east Asian (like Chinese, Japanese etc.) vegetation and the vegetation of the American south fit and can grow in each other's climates very well (which is why things like the kudzu vine could become such an uncontrollable pest).
That's pretty interesting, but don't those fruits need sorts of hot sunny summers to grow well? Perhaps they're grown more of as ornamentals in the more maritime climates?
Olives and different citrus are grown here commercially. there isn't enough heat here for grapefruit, although the trees still grow well enough the fruit won't ripen. I've never had any frost damage and the oranges in late winter are worth the wait
I remember that statement from browsing a climate book by Trewartha (I think he's a climatologist that developed some modifications to Koppen's way of classifying) and he said something to that nature (that subtropical east Asia is most unusual for cold averages for its latitude but north America is the most unusual for the record cold snaps much colder than its averages).
On another note, I've heard that east Asian (like Chinese, Japanese etc.) vegetation and the vegetation of the American south fit and can grow in each other's climates very well (which is why things like the kudzu vine could become such an uncontrollable pest).
You hit the nail on the head, and is pretty much the point I was trying to make. North America fools you by having these warm winter averages in the southern half of the country, but the standard deviation from what is "average" is stunning when the severe outbreaks occcur. I mean look at last winter. Havana, Cuba, a city at sea level on a tropical island below the Tropic of Cancer (just barely), reached of low of 35 last year and I think only had a high in the 50's. Hanoi is no comparison since it is not on an island. Havana is surrounded by 80 degree waters and still a front from the Arctic was able to penetrate that far south. That is what is most extreme about N. America.
I think the best grapefruit comes from the Rio Grande Valley.
Do you think the actual trees, and not just the fruit, will survive this? Yesterday did not go above freezing all day and currently the temp is still 30 on SPI and Brownsville. That has to do some serious damage.
From a citrus handbook on gardening:
"Freeze is a word that often strikes fear in the heart of all of those who own citrus trees. Whenever the temperature dips below 32 degrees, the possibility of damage to citrus trees becomes very real. While nearly all citrus trees can deal with below freezing temperatures for a few hours, the extent of the damage will often depend on how cold it gets and how long it stays below freezing, along with the tree's overall health before the freeze."
Do you think the actual trees, and not just the fruit, will survive this? Yesterday did not go above freezing all day and currently the temp is still 30 on SPI and Brownsville. That has to do some serious damage.
From a citrus handbook on gardening:
"Freeze is a word that often strikes fear in the heart of all of those who own citrus trees. Whenever the temperature dips below 32 degrees, the possibility of damage to citrus trees becomes very real. While nearly all citrus trees can deal with below freezing temperatures for a few hours, the extent of the damage will often depend on how cold it gets and how long it stays below freezing, along with the tree's overall health before the freeze."
This is why you see Florida Citrus farmers ice their trees, or use fires to keep them warm at times of extended freezes. This is no different here in S. Texas. And while we do occasionally (and I mean once in a 20 year occurance) have a super freeze like this, this is by no means the norm. Many years can pass by in deep S. Texas without ANY freeze at all. In this sense, I think you have your facts mixed up. Its just like anywhere else in this great country of ours, that extremes do occur, whether its with temps, precip, drought, etc. You simply replant, and move on. Here in Portland, TX, we grow all kinds of citrus. The ones that don't survive, we replant, and they will grow back. Although we average HERE about 1-3 freezes a winter, there is too many a winter WITHOUT a freeze. We grow things like tomatoes all year here. We just cover up if there is a threat of a freeze, which generally is few and far between.
And, make no doubt about it, this area is DEFINATELY subtropical, despite your weak arguments about the entire lower 48 minus deep S. Florida being Continental. There are different subtropical characteristics for different areas of the southern USA. Perhaps you need to broaden your terms on what subtropical really is.
According to climatologistGlenn G. Trewartha, a subtropical region should have at least eight months with a mean temperature of 10 °C (50.0 °F) or above. His revision of Köppen climate classification assigns to such areas the letter C, while others zones encompassed in the original Köppen group C class would be considered part of group.
American climatologist John F. Griffiths in his book Applied climatology described the subtropical zone as having a coldest month of between 6 °C (42.8 °F) and 18 °C (64.4 °F) and assigning to this group the letter B, while the original B group of Köppen taxonomy would be spread over the various temperature-based groups.
German climatologists Carl Troll and Karlheinz Paffen defined warmgemäßigte Zonen ("Warm temperate zones") plain and hilly lands having an average temperature of the coldest month between 2 °C (35.6 °F) and 13 °C (55.4 °F) in Northern Hemisphere and between 6 °C (42.8 °F) and 13 °C (55.4 °F) in Southern Hemisphere, excluding oceanic and continental climates.
Subtropical areas
Examples of subtropical cities and areas around the world include (see map above for more details):
In Africa
Do you think the actual trees, and not just the fruit, will survive this? Yesterday did not go above freezing all day and currently the temp is still 30 on SPI and Brownsville. That has to do some serious damage.
From a citrus handbook on gardening:
"Freeze is a word that often strikes fear in the heart of all of those who own citrus trees. Whenever the temperature dips below 32 degrees, the possibility of damage to citrus trees becomes very real. While nearly all citrus trees can deal with below freezing temperatures for a few hours, the extent of the damage will often depend on how cold it gets and how long it stays below freezing, along with the tree's overall health before the freeze."
Sustained periods below freezing just spoils the fruit, the tree itself can take down to 25F and starts to show moderate damage around 21-23F depending on variety, provenance etc. Grapefruits and Oranges are hardier then limes or lemons. I live 350+ miles north of Brownsville, but people still grow citrus here(though not commercially). A couple trees were loaded with ripening fruit which probably has spoiled by now, but the trees themselves just show some wilting on the outer leaves. In fact they all survived 17F(with wood die back) last year and seem to be fine after this year's DAYS below freezing with an ultimate low near 21F. Citrus actually does better in places with moderate freezes, it hardens them.
Sustained periods below freezing just spoils the fruit, the tree itself can take down to 25F and starts to show moderate damage around 21-23F depending on variety, provenance etc. Grapefruits and Oranges are hardier then limes or lemons. I live 350+ miles north of Brownsville, but people still grow citrus here(though not commercially). A couple trees were loaded with ripening fruit which probably has spoiled by now, but the trees themselves just show some wilting on the outer leaves. In fact they all survived 17F(with wood die back) last year and seem to be fine after this year's DAYS below freezing with an ultimate low near 21F. Citrus actually does better in places with moderate freezes, it hardens them.
Well, am glad to hear that. I feel bad for the farmers when this kind of thing happens. I seem to remember reading that in the late 80's a lot of trees were killed or really damaged. Millions in dollars worth of damage.
As far as sub-tropical I'll admit I'm wrong about S. Texas. On the other hand, I really find it hard to define a place like Norfok, VA as sub-tropical.
I would think to a person living in a Med or Southern Hemisphere Sub-tropical climate, the winters in Norfok would feel like the Arctic, particularly the low min's reached every single winter. I think min lows reached on an annual basis should be considered, along with vegetation that can be grown, as to whether a place is sub-tropical. I don't think people in Norfolk consider their climate sub-tropical. I just don't buy these overly liberal definitions of sub-tropical.
I remember reading an article written by an Australian describing life in the USA, and they specifically mentioned in the book how the word "temperate" used to describe climate in the USA, was much more generous in temp (with low temps in mind) than what temperate in Australia means. I believe they were comparing Melbourne, AU, to Seattle, WA, as an example.
Citrus (even those on non cold hardy rootstock) aren't bothered by cold here, so I use tree tomatoes as an indicator plant for other frost sensitive plants. There are lots of nights here that can reach freezing during winter, but only for an hour or two. The coldest max temp I've seen where I am now is 8C(48F),but most years wouldn't see a max colder than 10C(51F).
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Subtropics Definition
