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Old 07-18-2011, 09:32 AM
 
Location: Katy, Texas
855 posts, read 718,879 times
Reputation: 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilovemycomputer90 View Post
Looks like the beaches in Texas are not nearly as jammed packed with hotels and condos compared to Florida.
I think the photos that Tom77 posted are from the northern end of South Padre, you could hardly see the beach from the southern end...

http://www.texasoutside.com/southpadre/imagemap.htm
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Old 07-18-2011, 09:34 AM
 
Location: Mid Atlantic USA
5,446 posts, read 2,535,070 times
Reputation: 2861
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChesterNZ View Post
I still stand by my definitions:

Tropical -- typically found below 23.5 degrees latitude -- typical annual mean temperature 21+ C / 70+ F

Subtropical -- typically found from 23.5 to 30 degrees latitude -- typical annual mean temperature 18 - 21 C / 65 - 70 F

Warm temperate -- typically found from 30 to 40 degrees latitude -- typical annual mean temperature 13 - 18 C / 55 - 65 F

Note that this is a much stricter definition of subtropical than Koppen, et al. and excludes a large number of climates conventionally considered subtropical. Obviously, basing a climate classification system on a single parameter (in this case annual mean temperature) ignores many of the complexities of real climates (particularly hardiness zones -- I would say anything lower than USDA zone 9 is not subtropcial).

Never underestimate the importance of hardiness zones. It's interesting to note how easily the subtropical look of many SE US cities is achieved in much cooler New Zealand climates (most of which will never see 90 F). Here are a couple of photos of Kerikeri at 35 S -- a classic warm temperate climate:


Interesting. By your def places like Atlanta, Birmingham, Jackson, etc end up being warm temperate instead of sub-tropical. However, places like Orlando, FL end up being in the tropical category, along with Galveston, TX (annual temp of 70.2F).
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Old 07-18-2011, 11:26 AM
 
Location: USA East Coast
4,444 posts, read 4,366,117 times
Reputation: 1896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaul View Post
I have never heard a classification called "warm temperate", nor do I find any correctness in having such a category. Some members in this forum have shown the outer suburbs of Sydney can get consistent sticky Texas-like heat in the summer. I checked out a few, and judged their climate to be very close in resemblance to Houston. If you take away the oceanic influence, Sydney would be down right a subtropical climate.

I'll stick to my own classification scheme:
-Tropical: Anywhere up to 23.5 degrees latitude
-Subtropical: 23.5 to 37 degrees latitude
- Humid Continental: 37 to 58 degrees latitude
- Subarctic: 58 to 66 degrees latitude
- Polar: 66 to 90 degrees latitude

Hmmm:

That's not too bad, I could live with that. If you average out all climates across the whole planet...you're pretty close to the average climate type.
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Old 07-18-2011, 12:34 PM
 
Location: New Jersey
10,412 posts, read 5,379,684 times
Reputation: 4802
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChesterNZ View Post
I still stand by my definitions:

Tropical -- typically found below 23.5 degrees latitude -- typical annual mean temperature 21+ C / 70+ F

Subtropical -- typically found from 23.5 to 30 degrees latitude -- typical annual mean temperature 18 - 21 C / 65 - 70 F

Warm temperate -- typically found from 30 to 40 degrees latitude -- typical annual mean temperature 13 - 18 C / 55 - 65 F

Note that this is a much stricter definition of subtropical than Koppen, et al. and excludes a large number of climates conventionally considered subtropical. Obviously, basing a climate classification system on a single parameter (in this case annual mean temperature) ignores many of the complexities of real climates (particularly hardiness zones --I would say anything lower than USDA zone 9 is not subtropcial).

Never underestimate the importance of hardiness zones. It's interesting to note how easily the subtropical look of many SE US cities is achieved in much cooler New Zealand climates (most of which will never see 90 F). Here are a couple of photos of Kerikeri at 35 S -- a classic warm temperate climate:
Interesting. I'm surprised there's places in New Zealand that look very similar to the US southeast.

I prefer your definitions. Koppen's classification is too broad, IMO. Warm temperate does seem to fit more when describing places like Atlanta or Birmingham (Zone 8). Kerikeri and Aukland are more subtropical than many southeastern US cities by your definition, and I could agree with that. The winters are just too extreme here.
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Old 07-18-2011, 12:55 PM
 
Location: Top of the South (Nelson), NZ
6,695 posts, read 3,004,048 times
Reputation: 2318
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilovemycomputer90 View Post
Interesting. I'm surprised there's places in New Zealand that look very similar to the US southeast.

I prefer your definitions. Koppen's classification is too broad, IMO. Warm temperate does seem to fit more when describing places like Atlanta or Birmingham (Zone 8). Kerikeri and Aukland are more subtropical than many southeastern US cities by your definition, and I could agree with that. The winters are just too extreme here.
That's kind of the system I'm used to. We're a cool temperate climate because our annual average is under 13C/55F, but only just. Having a subtropical climate (under Trewartha's system) just doesn't seem right.

At the same time those palms in Kerikeri grow down here also, and at a good rate.
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Old 07-18-2011, 01:33 PM
 
Location: Katy, Texas
855 posts, read 718,879 times
Reputation: 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe90 View Post
That's kind of the system I'm used to. We're a cool temperate climate because our annual average is under 13C/55F, but only just. Having a subtropical climate (under Trewartha's system) just doesn't seem right.

At the same time those palms in Kerikeri grow down here also, and at a good rate.
Those bangalow palms (Archontophoenix cunninghamia) will also grow in San Francisco, though they're marginal in Houston, New Orleans, and Jacksonville. I wouldn't call San Francisco subtropical, but Houston certainly is (months of equatorial weather, with a short relatively winter you know I don't like). It's confusing when you use vegetation to measure climate, because some tropical plants will survive in temperate oceanic climates, though most of them will not reach their full potential (such as the coconut palm in Newport Beach). IMHO, subtropical climates should have a 70*F mean temperature for at least 5 months, or tropical summers. If it weren't for the cold snaps in the subtropical U.S., most tropical plants would grow much faster there then in California. Temperate oceanic climates are not subtropical.

Last edited by Asagi; 07-18-2011 at 01:48 PM..
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Old 07-18-2011, 01:49 PM
 
Location: Cloudchurch, Subantarctica
2,602 posts, read 1,736,086 times
Reputation: 1304
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattyj46 View Post
Wow lol I had no idea that Kerikeri looked like that , could mistake it for somewhere tropical indeed!
I believe they're Bangalow palms -- native to northern NSW.
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Old 07-18-2011, 02:00 PM
 
Location: Cloudchurch, Subantarctica
2,602 posts, read 1,736,086 times
Reputation: 1304
Quote:
Originally Posted by tom77falcons View Post
Interesting. By your def places like Atlanta, Birmingham, Jackson, etc end up being warm temperate instead of sub-tropical. However, places like Orlando, FL end up being in the tropical category, along with Galveston, TX (annual temp of 70.2F).
Jackson would be borderline subtropical in my view. In Australia, Sydney would also be borderline.

But for a handful of cold nights / cool days Orlando is virtually tropical in my opinion. Galveston not so much due to the long winter cool spells.

Clearly, my system needs a little refinement, which is why I think hardiness zones are so relevant.

Being able to support fruiting Coconut palms is my standard for tropical climates. I have seen these on the Gold Coast of Australia (28 S, 70 F mean temp, zone 11), so I would consider that to be borderline tropical.
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Old 07-18-2011, 02:02 PM
 
Location: Top of the South (Nelson), NZ
6,695 posts, read 3,004,048 times
Reputation: 2318
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asagi View Post
Those bangalow palms (Archontophoenix cunninghamia) will also grow in San Francisco, though they're marginal in Houston, New Orleans, and Jacksonville. I wouldn't call San Francisco subtropical, but Houston certainly is (months of equatorial weather, with a short relatively winter you know I don't like). It's confusing when you use vegetation to measure climate, because some tropical plants will survive in temperate oceanic climates, though most of them will not reach their full potential (such as the coconut palm in Newport Beach). IMHO, subtropical climates should have a 70*F mean temperature for at least 5 months, or tropical summers. If it weren't for the cold snaps in the subtropical U.S., most tropical plants would grow much faster there then in California. Temperate oceanic climates are not subtropical.
It must be frustrating to be able to grow plants quickly 99% of the time, but to know there is a very real chance of losing them in occasional cold snaps. I'll take the slow n steady climate here in regard to Bangalows, I haven't heard of anyone losing one to cold (yet).

Under Trewarthas classification system our temperate oceanic is also subtropical, although I think of it as cool temperate climate.

Vegetation does confuse the issue a bit, but at the same time does show the bottom line of any climate.
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Old 07-18-2011, 02:04 PM
 
Location: Cloudchurch, Subantarctica
2,602 posts, read 1,736,086 times
Reputation: 1304
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaul View Post
I have never heard a classification called "warm temperate", nor do I find any correctness in having such a category. Some members in this forum have shown the outer suburbs of Sydney can get consistent sticky Texas-like heat in the summer. I checked out a few, and judged their climate to be very close in resemblance to Houston. If you take away the oceanic influence, Sydney would be down right a subtropical climate.

I'll stick to my own classification scheme:
-Tropical: Anywhere up to 23.5 degrees latitude
-Subtropical: 23.5 to 37 degrees latitude
- Humid Continental: 37 to 58 degrees latitude
- Subarctic: 58 to 66 degrees latitude
- Polar: 66 to 90 degrees latitude

I'm not sure about the dividing line between humid continental and subarctic. Places like Happy valley Goose bay, at only 53 degrees, is a subarctic climate in its own right. Happy Valley. Higher latitude locations in Alaska, and obviously Scandinavia, may not even get close.

- Any oceanic, alpine, or desert climates that differ from the norm expected of their respective latitudes will be classified by tacking on the words oceanic, alpine, or desert... For example, Sydney would be what I call an oceanic subtropical climate. Atlanta- subtropical. New York City- oceanic humid continental. Quito- Alpine tropical. Anchorage- oceanic subarctic, Hobart- oceanic humid continental. Paris, London, Berlin- oceanic humid continental. Moscow- humid continental. Phoenix- desert subtropical, Baghdad-desert subtropical, Vancouver- oceanic humid continental........ the list goes on.

If you like my climate classification scheme, please click on "rate this post positively"
"Temperate" really covers a very broad area -- everything between the tropics and polar regions. So I think it's helpful to distinguish cool temperate climates such as Invercargil, Glasgow, etc. from warm temperate climates like Auckland, Melbourne, etc.
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