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Old 08-05-2011, 03:05 AM
 
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
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0F is insanely COLD

in Buenos Aires (a humid subtropical weather) we are having the coldest winter in decades and temperatures never get lower than 35f. 40f is very cold for our winter. Winter averages are between 50s and high 60s. Thats subtropical, imo.
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Old 08-05-2011, 09:10 AM
 
Location: Katy, Texas
861 posts, read 796,391 times
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Yes, I agree humid subtropical should be split into two, one for Houston, New Orleans, Mobile, Jacksonville, Savannah, and the immediate coast northward to the Carolinas (anywhere where you can find very old southern live oaks) and a more equator-ward one for Brownsville, Tampa, Orlando, and Melbourne (anywhere you can grow coconuts marginally). Places like Dallas, Atlanta, Raleigh, etc. are bordering on warm temperate. Corpus Christi and Daytona Beach would be on the border of the two subtropical zones. Miami would be the transition between the warmer subtropical zone and true tropical zone.

Last edited by Asagi; 08-05-2011 at 09:19 AM..
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Old 08-05-2011, 11:19 AM
 
Location: USA East Coast
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We should remember that the orginal Koppen work never identified a subtropical zone.

The C zone in Koppen’s climate classification was only called “Humid Mesothermal Climates”. The only requirement was that the coldest month be warmer than 3 C/27 F….and colder than 18 C/65 F. Much of the lower middle latitudes between 30 and 45 N/S...as well as some higher latitude marine climates (New Zealand, PNW, NW Europe) was located in this climate group.

NYC was never called subtropical in Koppens climate classifications.
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Old 08-05-2011, 04:25 PM
 
Location: Live in NY State, (sometimes) work in CT
6,626 posts, read 8,347,645 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wavehunter007 View Post
We should remember that the orginal Koppen work never identified a subtropical zone.

The C zone in Koppen’s climate classification was only called “Humid Mesothermal Climates”. The only requirement was that the coldest month be warmer than 3 C/27 F….and colder than 18 C/65 F. Much of the lower middle latitudes between 30 and 45 N/S...as well as some higher latitude marine climates (New Zealand, PNW, NW Europe) was located in this climate group.

NYC was never called subtropical in Koppens climate classifications.
Actually, there has been a lot of dispute with climatologists about whether NYC and Philly fall in the "subtropical" vs. "humid continental" group.

The issue is the part the technical definition of "subtropical" that no month averages below 32-deg and NYC is right on the border of that (in fact, it wavers, January averaged above 32 back in the 1931-60 normals, below it for the 1941-70, 1951-80, and 1961-90, and back above for the 1971-2000 and 1981-2010 normals). I think it's the word "subtropical" that is the big misnomer, not the climate itself.

I personally think the solution is splitting it in two, one (using the US as I'm obviously most familiar with that) covering about everything south of (and including) a Cape Hatteras to Atlanta to Dallas (maybe Oklahoma City) line that would still be called "subtropical" and something with a new name (I like (despite the oxymoron) "Marine Continental" or maybe "Modified Continental") north of it from about NYC to DC, then due west from there (everything west of "Megalopolis" has always been "Humid Continental" and never subtropical).

I see snow as a better definition of "subtropical", even the northern boundaries of my "subtropical" definition averages <5" of total snow per winter and often goes without measurable snow many winters. Something definitely not true north of that line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Infamous92 View Post
Lol leave NYC alone, it's always singled out despite fitting all the criteria for "humid subtropical", I like being "subtropical" . I wouldn't call NYC "humid continental", it hasn't gone below zero since 1984-85, nearly THIRTY years. JFK Airport's record low is only -3F which isn't as extreme as some southern cities. NYC's hardiness zone is like 7/8, which does allow for certain species of palm trees. NYC is not as cold as people make it out to be, I know I'll be eating my words when January comes but I rather complain about highs in the 30's and 40's as opposed to multiple days totally below zero. I've never even experienced a temperature below 0F and I'm a NYC native, anything under 30 is hell to me.
Actually, it went subzero in January 1994, we are a year away from breaking the longest period with no subzero temperatures in NYC (longest is 18 years from 1943 to 1961.......interesting thing about 1943 is there was a -8 in Feb., that was the last time Central Park was ever less than -2). We came close in January 2004 to "breaking the spell" when the low went down to 1 degree.

One problem with the NYC "subtropical" classification is it is based on low temperature, and due to a combination of extreme "urban heat island" effects and being near the water, has a very low diurnal range for a so-called "continental" climate so while it has less subfreezing lows than most other US cities near its latitude (see above regarding "subtropical" and months that average below 32) it often has highs in winter not much above freezing. So you could have a day with a high of 38 and a low of 33. That is my issue with "subtropical", the fact that at least half the days in winter if not more have highs in the 30s or below.
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Old 08-05-2011, 09:44 PM
 
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NYC is very subtropical, just like Houston is very tropical in my view. There are allowable degrees of variance within each climate group. Houston is just another variation of a tropical climate, by a small degree, being only a few marks cooler than an equatorial climate. Even Anchorage and Oymyakon are group into the same subarctic category, despite one being 60 degrees colder , they are two totally different worlds apart. NYC is only 5 degrees cooler than Oklahoma City in the summer, hence subtropical. In the winter, Oklahoma city is much colder than NYC. Regarding to Houston, it is only slightly cooler than Honolulu during the winter, why would it not be tropical?

Last edited by Heat lover; 08-05-2011 at 09:54 PM..
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Old 08-05-2011, 09:59 PM
 
Location: Katy, Texas
861 posts, read 796,391 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heat lover View Post
NYC is very subtropical, just like Houston is very tropical in my view. There are allowable degrees of variance within each climate group. Houston is just another variation of a tropical climate, by a small degree, being only a few marks cooler than an equatorial climate. Even Anchorage and Oymyakon are group into the same subarctic category, despite one being 60 degrees colder , they are two totally different worlds apart. NYC is only 5 degrees cooler than Oklahoma City in the summer, hence subtropical. In the winter, Oklahoma city is much colder than NYC. Regarding to Houston, it is only slightly cooler than Honolulu during the winter, why would it not be tropical?
Houston slightly cooler then Honolulu in winter? LOL. Houston's average January temperature is Honolulu's record low!
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Old 08-05-2011, 11:14 PM
 
Location: Queens, NY e__e
654 posts, read 721,132 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7 Wishes View Post
Actually, there has been a lot of dispute with climatologists about whether NYC and Philly fall in the "subtropical" vs. "humid continental" group.

The issue is the part the technical definition of "subtropical" that no month averages below 32-deg and NYC is right on the border of that (in fact, it wavers, January averaged above 32 back in the 1931-60 normals, below it for the 1941-70, 1951-80, and 1961-90, and back above for the 1971-2000 and 1981-2010 normals). I think it's the word "subtropical" that is the big misnomer, not the climate itself.

I personally think the solution is splitting it in two, one (using the US as I'm obviously most familiar with that) covering about everything south of (and including) a Cape Hatteras to Atlanta to Dallas (maybe Oklahoma City) line that would still be called "subtropical" and something with a new name (I like (despite the oxymoron) "Marine Continental" or maybe "Modified Continental") north of it from about NYC to DC, then due west from there (everything west of "Megalopolis" has always been "Humid Continental" and never subtropical).

I see snow as a better definition of "subtropical", even the northern boundaries of my "subtropical" definition averages <5" of total snow per winter and often goes without measurable snow many winters. Something definitely not true north of that line.



Actually, it went subzero in January 1994, we are a year away from breaking the longest period with no subzero temperatures in NYC (longest is 18 years from 1943 to 1961.......interesting thing about 1943 is there was a -8 in Feb., that was the last time Central Park was ever less than -2). We came close in January 2004 to "breaking the spell" when the low went down to 1 degree.

One problem with the NYC "subtropical" classification is it is based on low temperature, and due to a combination of extreme "urban heat island" effects and being near the water, has a very low diurnal range for a so-called "continental" climate so while it has less subfreezing lows than most other US cities near its latitude (see above regarding "subtropical" and months that average below 32) it often has highs in winter not much above freezing. So you could have a day with a high of 38 and a low of 33. That is my issue with "subtropical", the fact that at least half the days in winter if not more have highs in the 30s or below.
I don't really have an issue with NYC being humid subtropical, all it really is is another name for "Cfa". It's not a very fitting name but I admit I do like it. I wish our daytime highs were generally warmer, like if the "urban heat island" effect could build upon itself 24/7 instead of only being useful at night. I thought NYC only saw 0F/1F in 1994, I wonder if only certain NYC locations went below 0F because I don't think JFK did. Then again JFK is usually the warm spot in the winter.

With the exception of the last two winters it seems we do get more rain than snow in the winter with highs generally around 40, however when wind is involved [90% of the time] it changes everything. There's been days in the 30's where I've felt hot with the sun blazing down with very little wind and we've had windy days in the 50's where I was freezing. Oh and I too have never felt a temperature below 0.
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Old 08-05-2011, 11:38 PM
 
56 posts, read 90,449 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asagi View Post
Houston slightly cooler then Honolulu in winter? LOL. Houston's average January temperature is Honolulu's record low!
Not Honolulu, I meant to use Hilo as the example
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Old 08-06-2011, 12:25 AM
 
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I think San Francisco should have its own Koppen, something like "Mediterranean sub-tropical with Southern Hemisphere cold-as-hell summer".
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Old 08-06-2011, 07:42 AM
 
Location: Live in NY State, (sometimes) work in CT
6,626 posts, read 8,347,645 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N130 View Post
I don't really have an issue with NYC being humid subtropical, all it really is is another name for "Cfa". It's not a very fitting name but I admit I do like it. I wish our daytime highs were generally warmer, like if the "urban heat island" effect could build upon itself 24/7 instead of only being useful at night. I thought NYC only saw 0F/1F in 1994, I wonder if only certain NYC locations went below 0F because I don't think JFK did. Then again JFK is usually the warm spot in the winter.
I checked and you're right, JFK was 0F on that day in 1994 (Central Park was -2, LGA was -3). The last subzero at JFK occurred in January of 1985.
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