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"The US South is too prone to cold compared to any other subtropical climate."
Pure nonsense. No climatologist, meteorologist, encyclopedia,etc has ever said such a thing. Just a simple look at the native ecosystem of the region can show off just how naturally warm and stable the climate of the region is. People keep hanging on to record lows caused by ancient, mythical cold snaps experienced by the region, forgetting that such cold was only experienced due to the perturbing of the Jetstream caused by the Cold Epoch.
If anything, the region is actually very warm in a natural state; locations on the Gulf Coast, like Houston, New Orleans, or Mobile, can experience lows as warm as 60F, or warmer, in the middle of winter, which are tropical levels, when cold fronts do not come.
Of course there is. The quality controlled data shows it clearly.
The BEST "data" is not to be trusted, there are serious problems with their graphs and adjustments to the records. Looking at the Tmin data for Jan-Feb shows the extreme cold period clearly. This also shows why using the annual Tmin and Tmax data (BEST) misses the winter trends completely.
Your link doesn't contradict BEST, it's just showing winter. The "data table" in the BEST link shows a few rather cold winter months in the same time period, rather similar to your link. Your link does not show it clearly, it shows a few unusually cold winters. Not anything close to a "cold epoch".
The "too prone" to cold refers to extreme annual temperatures not average winter low. In fact getting lows as high as 60°F in the winter indicates the very high variability of the climate, which goes both ways. I've read plenty of meteorological and climatoloigist sources, none has mentioned the "cold epoch".
Many meteorological, and climatologist sources do mention the Cold Epoch, in fact; its just that the term is not explicitly stated, though they all talk of the same general idea of prevailing abnormally cold conditions over the Eastern US.
Although 60F lows followed by colder lows may indicate variability, those 60F lows are what occur in the South during winter when cold fronts haven't been coming through in a while. Those temps would be what is natural in the South if not interrupted by such fronts.
I have yet to see any meteorological and climatologist sources that identify the US South as the subtropical region most prone to extremes in cold either; its only on this forum that I have ever heard such a claim, and it goes against the flora and fauna that naturally exist in the South.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei
The USDA calculates hardiness zones for recent years:
Mobile is in 8b, most of the rest of Alabama is 8a (average yearly minimum is 10-15°F). Data was taken from 1976-2005. Was that part of a cold epoch? The best instrumental temperature data shows little evidence of it:
With the gray uncertainty range, higher in earlier times. 1970s and early 80s appear to be on the chillier side but not out of range of the variability of the last two centuries; second half of the 19th century was similar, early 19th century probably was, too. There's no evidence of any cold epoch in the data. Now let's look at China's hardiness zone:
Similar, but at the same latitude (31°N) some Chinese locations have a higher hardiness zone (9) Some of Florida and Louisiana at the same latitude is in 9, but overall China is just a bit higher. So your statement is somewhat true, in that another subtropical (as in Cfa) climate is comparable though still slightly less prone to cold
The Cold Epoch over North America right now was already underway before the 19th Century, and because of that, the data is flawed from the get-go.
Even at that, zone 9 does extend beyond 30N in North America, in areas like coastal Georgia, South Carolina, and even North Carolina in areas like Cape Hatteras. Hardiness zones in the US are all skewed by the Cold Epoch; they would be much warmer in the absence of such a phenomenon.
Many meteorological, and climatologist sources do mention the Cold Epoch, in fact; its just that the term is not explicitly stated, though they all talk of the same general idea of prevailing abnormally cold conditions over the Eastern US.
Although 60F lows followed by colder lows may indicate variability, those 60F lows are what occur in the South during winter when cold fronts haven't been coming through in a while. Those temps would be what is natural in the South if not interrupted by such fronts.
I have yet to see any meteorological and climatologist sources that identify the US South as the subtropical region most prone to extremes in cold either; its only on this forum that I have ever heard such a claim, and it goes against the flora and fauna that naturally exist in the South.
The Cold Epoch over North America right now was already underway before the 19th Century, and because of that, the data is flawed from the get-go.
Even at that, zone 9 does extend beyond 30N in North America, in areas like coastal Georgia, South Carolina, and even North Carolina in areas like Cape Hatteras. Hardiness zones in the US are all skewed by the Cold Epoch; they would be much warmer in the absence of such a phenomenon.
What? That's complete BS. I could also say that 10-15 F lows in the Deep South would be the average if they had a constant northerly flow from the arctic in the winter with no interruption from southerly air flows.
60 F lows are pretty unusual in the Deep South outside of Central/South Florida. That's actually exceptionally warm, hell in a lot of the South even a 50 F low would be considered very warm in winter.
Just like 10 F would be exceptionally cold in the Deep South in winter, a 60 F low would be exceptionally warm. That's why most of the Deep South has 35-40 F average January lows, if you average 10 F and 60 F you get 35 F.
You have never provided evidence of this so called "Cold-Epoch". How about you actually do so so people can take you seriously?
What? That's complete BS. I could also say that 10-15 F lows in the Deep South would be the average if they had a constant northerly flow from the arctic in the winter with no interruption from southerly air flows.
60 F lows are pretty unusual in the Deep South outside of Central/South Florida. That's actually exceptionally warm, hell in a lot of the South even a 50 F low would be considered very warm in winter.
Just like 10 F would be exceptionally cold in the Deep South in winter, a 60 F low would be exceptionally warm. That's why most of the Deep South has 35-40 F average January lows, if you average 10 F and 60 F you get 35 F.
You have never provided evidence of this so called "Cold-Epoch". How about you actually do so so people can take you seriously?
If everyone would put him on ignore, he would go away. His posts are worthless gibberish bs. For some bizarre reason this guy just cannot acknowledge that the US South is more prone to arctic cold fronts than other subtropical climates. Really strange.
What? That's complete BS. I could also say that 10-15 F lows in the Deep South would be the average if they had a constant northerly flow from the arctic in the winter with no interruption from southerly air flows.
60 F lows are pretty unusual in the Deep South outside of Central/South Florida. That's actually exceptionally warm, hell in a lot of the South even a 50 F low would be considered very warm in winter.
Just like 10 F would be exceptionally cold in the Deep South in winter, a 60 F low would be exceptionally warm. That's why most of the Deep South has 35-40 F average January lows, if you average 10 F and 60 F you get 35 F.
You have never provided evidence of this so called "Cold-Epoch". How about you actually do so so people can take you seriously?
Well, maybe more like upper 50s, but still, lows with such warmth in the Coastal South seem to be what would naturally occur in the region if not for interruption by cold fronts (the coldness is temporary compared to the mildness/warmth). Observe it sometime in many Southern cities during lulls between cold front activity, and you will see just how warm the region naturally attempts to be.
60 F lows are pretty unusual in the Deep South outside of Central/South Florida. That's actually exceptionally warm, hell in a lot of the South even a 50 F low would be considered very warm in winter.
Just like 10 F would be exceptionally cold in the Deep South in winter, a 60 F low would be exceptionally warm. That's why most of the Deep South has 35-40 F average January lows, if you average 10 F and 60 F you get 35 F.
I saw someone on the US forum describe winter in New Orleans as "it might fall below 60 for a few nights". 60F lows happen in January, but it's still a full 15º above average.
ok here is what I say. to all who believe the us south is the most prone to extreme cold provide evidence, other notable scientists who agree with your point, and links of course and compare the us south to other subtropical locations throughout the globe. to Yn0hTnA provide evidence as to why the us south is not the most prone to cold, tell us about how the south was when this "cold epoch" didn't exist, and give us credible scientists who have mentioned something similar to this cold epoch and of course links.
ok here is what I say. to all who believe the us south is the most prone to extreme cold provide evidence, other notable scientists who agree with your point, and links of course and compare the us south to other subtropical locations throughout the globe. to Yn0hTnAprovide evidence as to why the us south is not the most prone to cold, tell us about how the south was when this "cold epoch" didn't exist, and give us credible scientists who have mentioned something similar to this cold epoch and of course links.
2.) Look at winter temps in the South in the long lulls between cold fronts, and you will get an idea of how the region would naturally be without the cold fronts; temps in the Gulf Coast would be in the upper 50s, and 60s for lows all winter long, to put to perspective. Without the temporary weather shifts induced by cold fronts, the Gulf/South Atlantic would be the sole climactic influence, allowing for such warm minimums. You see such a warm climate actually trying to come back, and maintain itself, only to clearly be interrupted by the cold fronts.
The existence of the Mound Builder Native Americans coincided with the time of the natural warmth of North America, which was how such an epic civilization was able to be supported. Unfortunately, the manifestation of the Cold Epoch, including a shift towards the winter frontal sweeps people recognize as typical of winter in North America, put an end to the society.
Cold Epochs have affected other locations around the world, from China, to Europe:
Quote:
Iron Age Cold Epoch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Middle Bronze Age Cold Epoch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A very well known Cold Epoch, called the Little Ice Age, did a number on the warm climates of Europe:
Quote:
In Lisbon, Portugal, snowstorms were much more frequent than today. Heavy snowfalls in the winters of 1665, 1744 and 1886 were reported
And China:
Quote:
In China, warm-weather crops, such as oranges, were abandoned in Jiangxi Province, where they had been grown for centuries.
Little Ice Age - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
On the other hand, these people on this weather forum cannot provide any articles, encyclopedias, books, or any reputable climatologist that has ever pointed out the US South as the subtropical region most prone to cold extremes. It just can't be found: Humid subtropical climate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Nowhere in this description does it ever say that the US South is most prone to cold extremes of any subtropical climate. Its just a claim made up by the people on this forum. Don't fall for it.
ok here is what I say. to all who believe the us south is the most prone to extreme cold provide evidence, other notable scientists who agree with your point, and links of course and compare the us south to other subtropical locations throughout the globe. to Yn0hTnA provide evidence as to why the us south is not the most prone to cold, tell us about how the south was when this "cold epoch" didn't exist, and give us credible scientists who have mentioned something similar to this cold epoch and of course links.
Go around the globe at the latitude of Savannah, GA and at sea level and look at record lows. Enough said. As someone else said, China is colder on avg temps, but warmer on record lows. That makes a big difference in the subtropical look of a place. CIDP are quite large in Shanghai, and small in Savannah.
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60F lows happen in January, but it's still a full 15º above average.
