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Old 01-19-2012, 06:49 PM
 
Location: Mid Atlantic USA
12,227 posts, read 9,992,126 times
Reputation: 5326

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Quote:
Originally Posted by burloak View Post
NOAA busted!!!

Sault Ste Marie, Ontario and Sault Ste Marie, Michigan are next to eachother

Detroit, Michigan and Windsor, Ontario are next to each other!!

They should have almost indentical sunshine hours!

This proves that when comparing Canadian city sunshine hours
with US city sunshine hours, you need to add about 300 hours to
the Canadian city totals!

I read comments on this forum like "Canadian city X is not bad but I have to go with US city X because of higher sunshine hours" , yeah your comparing apples and oranges, Canadian sunshine hours are under reported!

Not sure but maybe other parts of the world are under reported too.

Moral of the story, using USA sunshine hours to compare one US city
with another US city is fine but comparing other countries could be inaccurate

This is not unique to the US by any means. All you have to do is a google search and you can read up on all kinds of problems in many countries as they try to record sunshine hours. Even in the UK they are finding that the S-C method over recorded sunshine hours when now compared to more accurate methods being employed. Anecdotally I can tell you that being in Toronto at least three times, it is no where near as sunny as where I am in Philadelphia. So your idea of adding 300 hours to Toronto, which would put you at our levels here, is simply not true. There is no way Toronto is as sunny as the mid-Atlantic US coast.
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Old 01-19-2012, 06:53 PM
 
Location: Top of the South, NZ
16,650 posts, read 13,142,945 times
Reputation: 5332
I never knew NZ had a reputation for being a warm country, although once I joined this forum, I started to get an inkling some people thought this way. Mild , moderate, temperate and lacking in extremes are all terms I would use. At the same time, a lot of the environment around here (particularly original vegetation ) looks/is subtropical, and sandy beaches are everywhere, so I could see how someone could think that from photos.
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Old 01-19-2012, 07:16 PM
 
641 posts, read 808,936 times
Reputation: 512
Anecdotally I can tell you that being in Toronto at least three times, it is no where near as sunny as where I am in Philadelphia. So your idea of adding 300 hours to Toronto, which would put you at our levels here, is simply not true. There is no way Toronto is as sunny as the mid-Atlantic US coast.[/quote]

Tom, if that's true how do you explain Buffalo,NY and Burlington,VT
with almost 2300 sunshine hours? (almost 300 more than Toronto)

Buffalo,NY receives more precip than Toronto (approx 41" to 34")

I live between Toronto and Buffalo,NY
I watch both forecasts daily,
Trust me, no offense to Buffalo but Toronto is blessed compared to Buffalo
Buffalo's postion on the eastern end of Lake Erie means alot of lake effect
storms and almost double the snowfall of Toronto.
But I guess those are "sunny" storms

Also Tom, how do you explain Sault Ste Marie and Detroit data
that the another poster, facepalm17 brought up?
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Old 01-19-2012, 08:22 PM
 
253 posts, read 583,984 times
Reputation: 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by tom77falcons View Post
This is not unique to the US by any means. All you have to do is a google search and you can read up on all kinds of problems in many countries as they try to record sunshine hours. Even in the UK they are finding that the S-C method over recorded sunshine hours when now compared to more accurate methods being employed. Anecdotally I can tell you that being in Toronto at least three times, it is no where near as sunny as where I am in Philadelphia. So your idea of adding 300 hours to Toronto, which would put you at our levels here, is simply not true. There is no way Toronto is as sunny as the mid-Atlantic US coast.
Huh? You've been to a place 3 times and you know that it's not as sunny? How does that work? Hmmm...Maybe you were unlucky and happened to have hit cloudier than usual days

Anyway, I personally don't like this sunshine hours stuff
I prefer good old "percentage of possible sunshine" stats better,
even someone not into weather can grasp it right away.

I have an old Weather Almanac of USA, it's info is based on 1951-1980 normals, here is a list of various cities % of possible sunshine

Anchorage,AK 46%
Juneau,AK 31% (yikes)
Phoenix,AZ 86%
Los Angeles 73%
San Francisco 67%
Denver 70%
Washington,DC 57%
Tampa,FL 66%
Atlanta 61%
Hilo, Hawaii 39% (rainy location)
Honolulu 68%
Boise,Idaho 67%
Chicago 57%
Indianapolis 58%
New Orleans 57%
Portland,Maine 58%
Baltimore 57%
Boston 59%
Detroit 54%
Minneapolis 58%
Kansas City 64%
St Louis 58%
Omaha,NE 62%
Las Vegas,NV 86%
Atlantic City 54%
Albuquerque,NM 77%
Buffalo,NY 53%
New York City 59%
Raleigh,NC 60%
Fargo,ND 57%
Cincinnati 57%
Oklahoma City 67%
Portland, Oregon 47%
Philadelphia 58%
Charleston,SC 64%
Rapid City,SD 62%
Memphis,TN 64%
El Paso,TX 83%
San Antonio,TX 62%
Salt Lake City 70%
Richmond,VA 60%
Seattle 49%
Milwaukee 56%

To me, it looks like eastern half of USA is mostly 50% to 65% range
Western USA is definitely sunnier, above 60% (except for PNW)
Desert SW is very sunny, mostly above 75%
The US south seems to be generally abit sunnier than the north
But really ANYWHERE from the midwest to east coast is pretty much in the same ballpark, 52% to 59% (NYC being one of the sunniest)

Last edited by philobeddoe; 01-19-2012 at 09:11 PM..
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Old 01-19-2012, 08:25 PM
 
Location: Vancouver, BC
10,051 posts, read 11,498,127 times
Reputation: 4303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimac20 View Post
Yes most people don't think much about that.

In Australia continentality and elevation play just as much a role in temperature as latitude. Many people are surprised at how mild the winters are in Southern Australia. Some stations on the coast of Tasmania are almost frost-free.
This was a big misconception for me. I remember when I was a kid, my parents had a friend from Sydney and I remember asking them what the weather was like there and they said that it was 4 seasonal but the seasons reversed. Little did I know at the time that their idea of "winter" was not our idea of "winter".. and I remember the first time I saw the record low temperatures of Melbourne and Hobart.. my eyeballs just jumped out of my head especially considering that they are on the eastern side of Australia and I thought winters would be similar to the Eastern side of North America for that latitude.. how wrong I was. This was the beginning of my idea of Australia as being a lucky country climatically
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Old 01-19-2012, 08:47 PM
 
Location: Mid Atlantic USA
12,227 posts, read 9,992,126 times
Reputation: 5326
Wiki hours for US cities seem off for some reason. I would use this site for US cities:

Comparative Climate Data


and computing sunshine hours from that you can see that Buffalo, according to that site gets around 2138 hours vs wiki at 2205. Not off by much but others are. Detroit is actually 2361 according to NOAA, not 2435. Seattle is 2094 vs 2174 from wiki. A city like Cleveland lists 2286 on wiki, but NOAA lists as 2183. The numbers aren't that far off the realm of possibility using NOAA, and not wiki.


Also, if you look at Winnipeg, it gets 2372 according to Envir Canada. Then head 220 miles south to Fargo, ND and NOAA gives 2539, then head 230 more miles south and Huron, SD gets around 2800 according to NOAA. That doesn't seem that crazy considering each city seperated by a couple of hundred miles further south.


Finally, what happens between London and Toronto in Ontario? Both are downstream of Lake Huron and Lake Superior on northwest winds, yet according to Enviro Canada, London gets 1800 hours vs 2037 for Toronto. So in 100 miles you gain 237 hours of bright sunshine? How come according to this site:
Sunniest City in Canada - Current Results

Hamilton, ON gets 2088 vs Toronto with 2038, 50 hours more. How is that? And Hamilton is heading towards Buffalo.

Also, according to this site, The Climate and Weather of Windsor, Ontario

Windsor gets an average of 6.1 hours per day of sunshine, while Detroit averages 6.5 according to NOAA. Wiki references Enviro Canada and claims 2265 for Windsor. That is off Detroit by 96 hours. Also, the Detroit recording location is west of Detroit, and the Windor site is east of Windor, around 20 miles apart. I really don't think these differences amount to some 300 or so hours anywhere, and I don't think they are all that unreasonable given local climate differences. Heck, look at the 100 hours difference between Heathrow and Greenwich in sunshine hours.
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Old 01-19-2012, 08:50 PM
 
Location: Mid Atlantic USA
12,227 posts, read 9,992,126 times
Reputation: 5326
Quote:
Originally Posted by philobeddoe View Post
Huh? You've been to a place 3 times and you know that it's not as sunny? How does that work? Hmmm...Maybe you were unlucky and happened to have hit cloudier than usual days

Anyway, I personally don't like this sunshine hours stuff
I prefer good old "percentage of possible sunshine" stats better,
even someone not into weather can grasp it right away.

I have an old Weather Almanac of USA, it's info is based on 1951-1980 normals, here is a list of various cities % of possible sunshine

Anchorage,AK 46%
Juneau,AK 31% (yikes)
Phoenix,AZ 86%
Los Angeles 73%
San Francisco 67%
Denver 70%
Washington,DC 57%
Tampa,FL 66%
Atlanta 61%
Hilo, Hawaii 39% (rainy location)
Honolulu 68%
Boise,Idaho 67%
Chicago 57%
Indianapolis 58%
New Orleans 57%
Portland,Maine 58%
Baltimore 57%
Boston 59%
Detroit 54%
Minneapolis 58%
Kansas City 64%
St Louis 58%
Omaha,NE 62%
Las Vegas,NV 86%
Atlantic City 54%
Albuquerque,NM 77%
Buffalo,NY 53%
New York City 59%
Raleigh,NC 60%
Fargo,ND 57%
Cincinnati 57%
Oklahoma City 67%
Portland, Oregon 47%
Philadelphia 58%
Charleston,SC 64%
Rapid City,SD 62%
Memphis,TN 64%
El Paso,TX 83%
San Antonio,TX 62%
Salt Lake City 70%
Richmond,VA 60%
Seattle 49%
Milwaukee 56%

To me, it looks like eastern half of USA is mostly 50% to 65% range
Western USA is definitely sunnier, above 60% (except for PNW)
Desert SW is very sunny, mostly above 75%
The US south seems to be generally abit sunnier than the north
But really ANYWARE from the midwest to east coast is pretty much in the same ballpark, 52% to 59% (NYC being one of the sunniest)
I said it was anecdotally. It is not accurate climatically. However, you just don't go around adding 300 hours to Canada sunshine hours to equate to the US. That is even more unscientific. It felt much cloudier to me in Toronto. Albeit twice I was there was January, and the other time was June. Each time was around a week. Upon returing home I would notice how much sunnier it felt at home compared to Toronto. That's all I can say.
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Old 01-19-2012, 08:57 PM
 
Location: Vancouver, BC
10,051 posts, read 11,498,127 times
Reputation: 4303
Quote:
Originally Posted by tom77falcons View Post
Wiki hours for US cities seem off for some reason. I would use this site for US cities:

Comparative Climate Data


and computing sunshine hours from that you can see that Buffalo, according to that site gets around 2138 hours vs wiki at 2205. Not off by much but others are. Detroit is actually 2361 according to NOAA, not 2435. Seattle is 2094 vs 2174 from wiki. A city like Cleveland lists 2286 on wiki, but NOAA lists as 2183. The numbers aren't that far off the realm of possibility using NOAA, and not wiki.


Also, if you look at Winnipeg, it gets 2372 according to Envir Canada. Then head 220 miles south to Fargo, ND and NOAA gives 2539, then head 230 more miles south and Huron, SD gets around 2800 according to NOAA. That doesn't seem that crazy considering each city seperated by a couple of hundred miles further south.


Finally, what happens between London and Toronto in Ontario? Both are downstream of Lake Huron and Lake Superior on northwest winds, yet according to Enviro Canada, London gets 1800 hours vs 2037 for Toronto. So in 100 miles you gain 237 hours of bright sunshine? How come according to this site:
Sunniest City in Canada - Current Results

Hamilton, ON gets 2088 vs Toronto with 2038, 50 hours more. How is that? And Hamilton is heading towards Buffalo.

Also, according to this site, The Climate and Weather of Windsor, Ontario

Windsor gets an average of 6.1 hours per day of sunshine, while Detroit averages 6.5 according to NOAA. Wiki references Enviro Canada and claims 2265 for Windsor. That is off Detroit by 96 hours. Also, the Detroit recording location is west of Detroit, and the Windor site is east of Windor, around 20 miles apart. I really don't think these differences amount to some 300 or so hours anywhere, and I don't think they are all that unreasonable given local climate differences. Heck, look at the 100 hours difference between Heathrow and Greenwich in sunshine hours.

I know in the case of London vs. Toronto, London is much more prone to snowsqualls than Toronto is because Toronto is just far enough away from Lake Huron that they peter out by the time they get there and London is not... last year London got some ridiculous amount of snow from snowsqualls... more than 1.5 metres or about 5 feet from one squall if memory serves.
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Old 01-19-2012, 09:20 PM
 
Location: Wellington and North of South
5,025 posts, read 6,462,937 times
Reputation: 2425
Quote:
Originally Posted by tom77falcons View Post
This is not unique to the US by any means. All you have to do is a google search and you can read up on all kinds of problems in many countries as they try to record sunshine hours. Even in the UK they are finding that the S-C method over recorded sunshine hours when now compared to more accurate methods being employed. Anecdotally I can tell you that being in Toronto at least three times, it is no where near as sunny as where I am in Philadelphia. So your idea of adding 300 hours to Toronto, which would put you at our levels here, is simply not true. There is no way Toronto is as sunny as the mid-Atlantic US coast.
He wasn't making that particular comparsion. Re C-S vs electronic in the UK - it cuts both ways re differences. The lengthy description given by Philip Eden makes this clear. (I think I actually quoted this to you in a PM).
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Old 01-19-2012, 09:23 PM
 
Location: Wellington and North of South
5,025 posts, read 6,462,937 times
Reputation: 2425
Quote:
Originally Posted by philobeddoe View Post
Huh? You've been to a place 3 times and you know that it's not as sunny? How does that work? Hmmm...Maybe you were unlucky and happened to have hit cloudier than usual days

Anyway, I personally don't like this sunshine hours stuff
I prefer good old "percentage of possible sunshine" stats better,
even someone not into weather can grasp it right away.

I have an old Weather Almanac of USA, it's info is based on 1951-1980 normals, here is a list of various cities % of possible sunshine

Anchorage,AK 46%
Juneau,AK 31% (yikes)
Phoenix,AZ 86%
Los Angeles 73%
San Francisco 67%
Denver 70%
Washington,DC 57%
Tampa,FL 66%
Atlanta 61%
Hilo, Hawaii 39% (rainy location)
Honolulu 68%
Boise,Idaho 67%
Chicago 57%
Indianapolis 58%
New Orleans 57%
Portland,Maine 58%
Baltimore 57%
Boston 59%
Detroit 54%
Minneapolis 58%
Kansas City 64%
St Louis 58%
Omaha,NE 62%
Las Vegas,NV 86%
Atlantic City 54%
Albuquerque,NM 77%
Buffalo,NY 53%
New York City 59%
Raleigh,NC 60%
Fargo,ND 57%
Cincinnati 57%
Oklahoma City 67%
Portland, Oregon 47%
Philadelphia 58%
Charleston,SC 64%
Rapid City,SD 62%
Memphis,TN 64%
El Paso,TX 83%
San Antonio,TX 62%
Salt Lake City 70%
Richmond,VA 60%
Seattle 49%
Milwaukee 56%

To me, it looks like eastern half of USA is mostly 50% to 65% range
Western USA is definitely sunnier, above 60% (except for PNW)
Desert SW is very sunny, mostly above 75%
The US south seems to be generally abit sunnier than the north
But really ANYWHERE from the midwest to east coast is pretty much in the same ballpark, 52% to 59% (NYC being one of the sunniest)
There's probably not much difference, but nevertheless you should use the more up-to-date table I gave a link for quite some time ago (averages through 2008, though in fact quite a few sites probably had not done any recording for quite some time at that point).
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