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Well, people kept solar or standard time year-round for centuries and they liked it just fine.
That was when people scheduled their time around when there was daylight and artificial light was scarce. Now we schedule around whatever the clock says. Might as well set the clock to something convenient rather than inconvenient.
I like having the option to wake up near sunrise (though I haven't lately). If I want 7-8 hours of sleep, that's 9:30-10:30 assuming a 5:30 sunrise. The rest of the world is up and doing things at 9 PM, it would be inconvenient to go to sleep earlier and I don't see what's wrong with evening daylight in the first place.
Well, people kept solar or standard time year-round for centuries and they liked it just fine. When people tried to keep DST year-round, it was untenable. As for standard time, if proper longitudinal time zones are followed solar noon will always fall within 15 minutes of clock noon, and it was a good invention so that people could change their watches in one-hour increments while traveling. I'd say that's pretty honest - it's certainly a lot more so than DST, in which clock noon will always be at least 40 minutes off from solar noon, in most cases much more than that. So this convenience excuse is pretty feeble, considering that I outlined above that DST, either part of the year or all year, is not viable. Arguments like that are typical of this stupidity you and your type exhibit on this issue.
If you're going to be rude by calling me stupid then I'm not even going to acknowledge your posts.
Just accept that not everybody shares your opinion and your opinions are unlikely to ever be implemented in the real world because the majority of people don't think like you. If this is so hard for you then maybe you need to create your own country in Antarctica or something.
For what it's worth I'm not even advocating keeping DST all year round. I'm advocating keeping it the way it is right now which works just fine and doesn't need changing.
If you're going to be rude by calling me stupid then I'm not even going to acknowledge your posts.
I was referring to Nei and FlightAttendant, not you. I see the quotation caused confusion.
Quote:
Just accept that not everybody shares your opinion and your opinions are unlikely to ever be implemented in the real world because the majority of people don't think like you. If this is so hard for you then maybe you need to create your own country in Antarctica or something.
The old "[insert country here]: love it or leave it" argument . Don't be offended if I consider that stupid, because it is. Just how do you think DST will be abolished in the real world? Waving a magic wand? No, it will be accomplished by convincing people that the argument in favor of it is correct, not by backing down and giving up. That's how the screwed-up DST you like so much was passed in the first place . For what it's worth I would never belittle your position like that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei
That was when people scheduled their time around when there was daylight and artificial light was scarce. Now we schedule around whatever the clock says.
If clocks don't matter, then you might as well join me, due to the inconveniences of the clock change, as well as DST year-round being non-viable. It seems my faction holds all the cards here .
NZ went to a permanent half-hour DST during WW2, and a damned good thing too. Another hour gets added for October-March inclusive, give or take day or two. The idea of having the sun rise at about 4.15 near the summer solstice is ridiculous for many of us.
Well let's say most people get up at 6:30 AM (making up a number). During at least half of the year, the sun rises well before wake up time. If people want to take advantage of all the daylight hours, they'd have to shift their sleep schedules early or shift the clocks. Shifting the clocks is simpler in some ways, and has the advantage that people on fixed schedules get more daylight. Sure, the clock is no longer "honest", but I don't see understand why that's important or why I should care.
The fact that people kept solar time for centuries is not a good argument. The world was very different then. Most people were farmers or worked outside.
What about when most people go to bed? If we use that line of thinking in many parts of the world the sun will set around midnight. These late sunsets are just ridiculous. It's bad enough without DST, let alone with it. As for convenience, there have been many studies that blow the convenience argument out of the water. Sleep deprivation, circadian disruption, traffic accidents, heart attacks, et cetera. Just so you night-owls and riff-raff can prowl around longer in the evening, desecrating proper timekeeping and any relation of the clock to the reality of what it's supposed to be measuring, and so you can spare yourselves the work of recognizing your schedules are distorted, you brush aside any other concerns of convenience, or of even the welfare of the same people you're trying to benefit. As for the evenings being warmer, I'd like to see how many people agree with that rationale when they're running air conditioning later and later at night, consuming more energy and money, during hot weather in summer. Not only must our clocks change back to honest measurements, many things in our society and economy need to change as well, such as our work hours and the fixed schedules, which many irrationally cling to and therefore reach the conclusion that the clocks must be changed and bring all the deleterious effects with it. It would be simpler for people to gradually wake up earlier and for the work schedules to be changed. At least then the evening daylight seekers won't have to bother the rest of us and cause the heart attacks, traffic fatalities, sleep disruptions, and increases in energy usage and utility bills. It doesn't seem worth it to me, and again, if clocks don't matter, then why bother with changing them out of step with the sun? And again, no one is getting more daylight - it's just being shifted later. Some here act as if any period before 8 o'clock in the morning doesn't exist. As for people working outside for centuries, it's really funny that Marbles mentions that, since those are the very same people that supposedly should eschew standard time. Spending time outside has nothing to do that maintaining standard time in perpetuity was done for centuries with no problems, whereas year-round DST caused so many problems it couldn't last 5 years. Which is the superior system, since it's clear that one time needs to be used? It's more sensible to maintain standard time, not to mention more convenient. It's a symptom of the all too common discrimination against early-risers (who often go to bed when it's still daylight under DST - no one ever mentions that sort of inconvenience!) and sheer laziness to ignore that reality.
That was quite rambling. I think I should take a breather from this, lest I develop a flame war mentality.
On a side note, this thread is sort of getting sidetracked from its original topic. If we are to continue this stimulating discussion, I suggest we create or revive a dedicated topic.
What about when most people go to bed? If we use that line of thinking in many parts of the world the sun will set around midnight. These late sunsets are just ridiculous. It's bad enough without DST, let alone with it. As for convenience, there have been many studies that blow the convenience argument out of the water. Sleep deprivation, circadian disruption, traffic accidents, heart attacks, et cetera. Just so you night-owls and riff-raff can prowl around longer in the evening, desecrating proper timekeeping and any relation of the clock to the reality of what it's supposed to be measuring, and so you can spare yourselves the work of recognizing your schedules are distorted, you brush aside any other concerns of convenience, or of even the welfare of the same people you're trying to benefit. As for the evenings being warmer, I'd like to see how many people agree with that rationale when they're running air conditioning later and later at night, consuming more energy and money, during hot weather in summer. Not only must our clocks change back to honest measurements, many things in our society and economy need to change as well, such as our work hours and the fixed schedules, which many irrationally cling to and therefore reach the conclusion that the clocks must be changed and bring all the deleterious effects with it. It would be simpler for people to gradually wake up earlier and for the work schedules to be changed. At least then the evening daylight seekers won't have to bother the rest of us and cause the heart attacks, traffic fatalities, sleep disruptions, and increases in energy usage and utility bills. It doesn't seem worth it to me, and again, if clocks don't matter, then why bother with changing them out of step with the sun? And again, no one is getting more daylight - it's just being shifted later. Some here act as if any period before 8 o'clock in the morning doesn't exist. As for people working outside for centuries, it's really funny that Marbles mentions that, since those are the very same people that supposedly should eschew standard time. Spending time outside has nothing to do that maintaining standard time in perpetuity was done for centuries with no problems, whereas year-round DST caused so many problems it couldn't last 5 years. Which is the superior system, since it's clear that one time needs to be used? It's more sensible to maintain standard time, not to mention more convenient. It's a symptom of the all too common discrimination against early-risers (who often go to bed when it's still daylight under DST - no one ever mentions that sort of inconvenience!) and sheer laziness to ignore that reality.
That was quite rambling. I think I should take a breather from this, lest I develop a flame war mentality.
On a side note, this thread is sort of getting sidetracked from its original topic. If we are to continue this stimulating discussion, I suggest we create or revive a dedicated topic.
Personally I just think you should shut up for once and for all. Some people do have night owl body clocks, like me, we are all different. I enjoy light evenings. What is it to you? The system will probably remain the same but I'm not about to cry about it. Do go away bore.
What about when most people go to bed? If we use that line of thinking in many parts of the world the sun will set around midnight. These late sunsets are just ridiculous.
Few people go to bed before sunset. It's common in our society for people to wake up after sunrise especially in the half of the year with longer days.
Just so you night-owls and riff-raff can prowl around longer in the evening, desecrating proper timekeeping and any relation of the clock to the reality of what it's supposed to be measuring, and so you can spare yourselves the work of recognizing your schedules are distorted, you brush aside any other concerns of convenience, or of even the welfare of the same people you're trying to benefit.
Night owl? For much of one summer I would go to sleep a bit after sunset, close to 10 PM wake up a little after sunrise. It would be harder to have a sleep schedule close to sunset and sunrise and clash with most people's schedule if sunset and sunrise was earlier. Didn't affect my energy use, either.
When I said clocks don't matter, I mean whether clocks connect to "honest timekeeping" doesn't matter, the exact time on the clock still matters.
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. Don't be offended if I consider that stupid, because it is. Just how do you think DST will be abolished in the real world? Waving a magic wand? No, it will be accomplished by convincing people that the argument in favor of it is correct, not by backing down and giving up. That's how the screwed-up DST you like so much was passed in the first place 
. For what it's worth I would never belittle your position like that.
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