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That's why, because of the moderation. If you have ever been in far Eastern Long Island, it has a much windier, cooler, Oceanic feel in the summer than areas immediately to the west. Especially areas in the extreme east such as Montauk and Orient Point
Moderation will happen to any place by the sea, but that doesn't make them Oceanic. A climate needs to have the weather pattern of an Oceanic climate, which is defined by a continuation of systems from the polar low pressure zone throughout the year.
Montauk, Block Island etc, would have (I'm guessing) patterns typical of the greater NE region, where summer patterns as a whole, are from a different source than winter patterns.
Moderation will happen to any place by the sea, but that doesn't make them Oceanic. A climate needs to have the weather pattern of an Oceanic climate, which is defined by a continuation of systems from the polar low pressure zone throughout the year.
Montauk, Block Island etc, would have (I'm guessing) patterns typical of the greater NE region, where summer patterns as a whole, are from a different source than winter patterns.
It may not be a solid Oceanic Climate, but it certainly very influenced by the nearby Ocean to make a signficant difference or to make it Oceanic-like.
Compare Newark, NJ which is devoid of any Ocean influence to Block Island. Look at those July temperatures, as well as those extremes!
It may not be a solid Oceanic Climate, but it certainly very influenced by the nearby Ocean to make a signficant difference or to make it Oceanic-like.
Compare Newark, NJ which is devoid of any Ocean influence to Block Island. Look at those July temperatures, as well as those extremes!
Yes, but the same would be true of any two comparable locations in the world.
Cfb moderation isn't just a result of being by a beach. It will get cold fronts during the warmer months, and warm fronts during the colder months, with a frequency which is far different to a mild Cfa climate.
Just as an example, my climate is at the same latitude as Montauk. It managed to reach 25C/77F four times last summer, and sees falling snow (for a few minutes) about once every 35 years. That's very different from a Cfa climate like Montauk, which just features a strong sea breeze, and a bit of protection during a hard freeze.
It depends on what climate classification you use. If you use Köppen with -3°C isotherm then Windsor Amherstburg and other cities might be borderline. So it is not really impossible since southern Ontario get influence from the lake (water moderates temperatures), and possibly global warming. Also in BC some heat waves might turn oceanic climates into subtropical ones. In my opinion oceanic climates are a cool-summer-subtropical, so when I think of subtropical, temperate comes to mind. Remeber temperate≠continental, but subtropical can be=temperate. Just look at Köppen and there you will find the information. Subtropical is a subset of temperate. For me all temperates=subtropical in different ways, but no matter how you put it Subtropicals such as Cfa,Cwa, and Csa are warm temperate.
Some highlands in South American and Eastern Asia, Cwc: Dry-winter-cold-summer-subtropical/cold-highland-subtropical/ dry-winter-subpolar-oceanic.
It makes sense since some place in the highland of tropics and places with oceanic climates in coastal Europe are being classified as the same climate.
So my answere is: Canada can have some subtropical climates, but it is not dominant climate.
I don't really agree with the -3C isotherm/packing snow definition for subtropical. Even Windsor gets 4 months of winter dormancy for plants - even frost hardy ones like crocuses won't be doing much of anything until early March typically. That's winter enough for me.
Also the West Coast climates are generally oceanic transitioning to Mediterranean, not subtropical. In fact many coastal BC climates are already officially classified as Mediterranean. What's an example of a climate that gets enough summer precipitation that you think it could also cross the 22C July/Aug isotherm?
I don't really agree with the -3C isotherm/packing snow definition for subtropical. Even Windsor gets 4 months of winter dormancy for plants - even frost hardy ones like crocuses won't be doing much of anything until early March typically. That's winter enough for me.
Also the West Coast climates are generally oceanic transitioning to Mediterranean, not subtropical. In fact many coastal BC climates are already officially classified as Mediterranean. What's an example of a climate that gets enough summer precipitation that you think it could also cross the 22C July/Aug isotherm?
Agree both on the -3 Celsius isotherm not being all that good and Mediterranean+the West Coast climates not being subtropical. I don't use dormancy because I know too little and it seems too variable between the climate types from what I was told, but 0 Celsius is a much better adherent to the no snowpack line than -3 Celsius, as might be expected from the temperature difference between the isotherms.
Plus the West Coast climates lack tropical summer heat (this is why cool summer subtropical makes no sense, subtropical climates must have some tropical heat by their very definition). Not to mention Mediterranean climates don't get enough summer precipitation to be subtropical, even though they are warm enough (it's the same reason why places like Honolulu and Niamey are not tropical, there must be plenty precipitation), so there is not much subtropical about them either.
-3 C and 0 C are not coldest month isotherms for "tropical-lite" lol. IMO most warmer Csa climates with winter months above 10 C like Los Angeles and most of the Mediterranean have truly subtropical temperature regimes. C_b climates with subtropical temperature regimes exist too, most notably in coastal South Africa.
Geodiode did a great video on this around a year ago.
-3 C and 0 C are not coldest month isotherms for "tropical-lite" lol. IMO most warmer Csa climates with winter months above 10 C like Los Angeles and most of the Mediterranean have truly subtropical temperature regimes. C_b climates with subtropical temperature regimes exist too, most notably in coastal South Africa.
Geodiode did a great video on this around a year ago.
Definitely needle palms.
Added: Just googled needle palms, they look pretty nice and hardy to USDA Zone 6b: to -5 °F (-20.55C). So Toronto can definitely support needle palms (Toronto is zones 6a & b, and possible 7a in some microclimate such as South facing back yards at The Beaches or York or Etobicoke S or Scarborough Bluff or even East York).
The bottle neck for windmill palms to be grown in Toronto is how to protect it during the cold spells without building a huge "cage" like those in Montreal.
Here are the ideas: For the trunk
- Redirect exhaust warm air from hot water tank to the palm. Definitely take more hot showers or do some laundry during the cold spells so that the hot water tank is turned on, hence providing exhaust warm air to the windmill palms
- Build an leaking flex pipe so that warm air can escape from it
- Wrap this leaking flex pipe to the trunk
- Wrap the trunk and leaky pipe with burlap
For the above, after the flex pipe and leaky pipe are built, then the rest will be routine and less time consuming
How to protect the leaves of a 10 foot mature windmill palms is still a bottle neck for me. How ?
- Use a 10 foot ladder ?
- Spend hours to wrap the leaves during Xmas or early Jan ? Assuming the leaking pipe (for warm air to escape) is long enough so that it will warm up the air inside the wrapped leaves ?
- Will the wrapping break the leaves ?
- Will strong wind break the wrapping ? If it did, am I going to go outside and re wrap the leaves at the middle of winter ? What if the wrapping breaks during a record cold spell of -20C (-4F) ?
The above are my concerns !
Why bother using all that effort? Makes sense to grow these in better places. It is delusion of grandeur to expect these to thrive. If followed Toronto's real hardiness Zone 5, perhaps you would see things more realistically.
Last edited by Lancerman; 12-11-2022 at 03:44 PM..
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