New York City have a Humid subtropical climate or a humid continetal humid climate ? (season, USA)
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No I wouldn't say Sydney is the same as New York. I'd say the Isles of Scilly is warm temperate because of the year round mildness
I wouldn't include the SE USA because its too extreme of a climate, summers can be very hot or either very cold.
Charleston is in the SE USA, and you included it. I think you meant to say that winters can be very cold, not summers. And winter can have cold periods there, but not to the extent of a continental climate that has on average cold winters. The winters in SE USA have a relatively high std of deviation, but the average or normals are mild.
I would consider Scilly Isles more cool temperate or marine than warm temperate. A place that doesn't crack 20C(68F) for an average high in any month doesn't seem remotely "warm". The warmest month there has an average high of 67.5F. I think temperate climates can be "marine" (cool) or warm (subtropical dry or wet). Lumping places like LA, Naples Italy, and Charleston in with Scilly seems odd to me. Winter average high temperatures in LA and Charleston are pretty close to average summer highs in Scilly.
I think a lot of the uproar has to do with perception, NYC is supposed to be this arctic tundra of a city that's always cold and snowy, when in actuality, wintertime NYC is closer to a Virginia Beach than it is a Chicago, let alone a Moscow or Minneapolis. I think many would like to see northern Cfa areas lumped in with areas that are truly continental simply because they both see snow and are seen as wintry.
I never noticed a difference between NYC and Virginia, although I felt a difference between NYC and Florida at times, and I think it has to do with the higher sun angle. And I find it hard to believe that millions of New Yorkers leave during winter, that figure sounds unrealistic. As far as NY being too cold, I feel that way as well, but it's all relative, I'm sure December in NYC would feel quite balmy to someone from Yakutsk or Yellowknife. Also, restricting the definition of "Cfa" to areas that are essentially tropical but fall short of the true definition minimizes the word subtropical as well, in my opinion.
I certainly agree with your whole post, and the colloquial definition of subtropical (which is another way of saying "warm in winter") is different from the scientific definition (which is more specific and technical), much like how the word "theory" is used, and it's pretty much always been that way. Combine that with the exaggerated reputation and most Americans living in warmer climates and you can see how people can lump NYC in with continental climates. From the perspective of someone from a place that actually is snowy there is no question that NYC is in an entirely different category than their own climate. Anyway, since a picture is worth a thousand words...
IMO it's continental- I was there in the first week of February and it pretty much stayed below freezing the whole time. It also regularly gets snow in winter even though it doesn't stay in the ground. Temperatures above freezing are common but the average temperature in winter is below freezing. Subtropical humid would be more like Virginia southward and Washington D.C. would sort of be borderline.
There were only 3 days in February 2013 where NYC failed to make it above freezing, all three days had highs of 30/31. And all 12 months in NYC average above freezing, which is why it's categorized as Cfa/Humid subtropical. Snow in NYC is extremely variable and can range from 40+ inches in one season to nearly nothing in the next. Overall, NYC's winter is only 2 degrees colder than DC's, and milder than parts of Virginia.
I certainly agree with your whole post, and the colloquial definition of subtropical (which is another way of saying "warm in winter") is different from the scientific definition (which is more specific and technical), much like how the word "theory" is used, and it's pretty much always been that way.
Eh. I think Koppen's "subtropical" name may have come from a mistranslation from the original German, where he may have used a different word.
I think a lot of the uproar has to do with perception, NYC is supposed to be this arctic tundra of a city that's always cold and snowy, when in actuality, wintertime NYC is closer to a Virginia Beach than it is a Chicago, let alone a Moscow or Minneapolis. I think many would like to see northern Cfa areas lumped in with areas that are truly continental simply because they both see snow and are seen as wintry.
I never noticed a difference between NYC and Virginia, although I felt a difference between NYC and Florida at times, and I think it has to do with the higher sun angle. And I find it hard to believe that millions of New Yorkers leave during winter, that figure sounds unrealistic. As far as NY being too cold, I feel that way as well, but it's all relative, I'm sure December in NYC would feel quite balmy to someone from Yakutsk or Yellowknife. Also, restricting the definition of "Cfa" to areas that are essentially tropical but fall short of the true definition minimizes the word subtropical as well, in my opinion.
Well perception does matter. No one forced Koppen to use the word subtropical to describe 4 season temperate regions like New York City. The word tropical has a certain meaning in the public mind. He simply could have used different terminology or he could have broken up his subtropical into several different zones. Köppen climate classification - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (Florida and New York do not belong in the same zone).
It would be just as wrong if he called New York subarctic because it has more than 2 feet of snow a year on average.
There are some bad winters when we hardly get any snow. In 2011 NYC only got 7.4 inches but the year before we got a respectable 51" and the year before that 61.9".
Eh. I think Koppen's "subtropical" name may have come from a mistranslation from the original German, where he may have used a different word.
Finally someone else says it!
He DID use a different word(s) in his C classification - he called his C climates "Mild Temperate Rainy" climates. All the climates in Koppens orginal C classification had the coldest month above -3 C/27 F.....and below 64.5 F/18 C. Koppen picked -3 C becasue his reserach (at the time) showed that -3 C was the rough line seperating frozen ground from unfrozen ground in winter. There was NO mention of the word "subtropical" in his ENTIRE text.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Infamous92
There were only 3 days in February 2013 where NYC failed to make it above freezing, all three days had highs of 30/31. And all 12 months in NYC average above freezing, which is why it's categorized as Cfa/Humid subtropical. Snow in NYC is extremely variable and can range from 40+ inches in one season to nearly nothing in the next. Overall, NYC's winter is only 2 degrees colder than DC's, and milder than parts of Virginia.
I agree with you here, however. Since I haved lived in the NYC metro on/off for years...I know the climate well. The winter in the NYC area is hyped to a great deal as if it is on par with Boston, Cleveland, Chicago, Denver...etc. All of those places get 50 to 75% more snowfall on average each winter. In terms of mean temps, in the three cold months cities like Chicago are almost 10 F colder than NYC. So it is true, the rep on NYC for winter is a bit overstated. I can remember many winter here it was in the 40's F all winter, and there was little if any snow.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dean york
It's not Subtropical!! Winters are way too cold. How can you justify calling NYC subtropical alongside places like Houston and New Orleans?
...and that is my issue as well.
Though I'm often in deep south Florida (which is just about tropical) I spend time in subtropical north Florida in the cold season. Most subtropical climates have warm temps (50's to 60's F) in the winter months...they have green plants and trees, even blooming flowers...etc. In NYC the trees are leafless (though there are some native broadleaf evergreens) and the days are have chilly to cold feel to them.
NYC is not Chicago or a true continential climate....but it's still far too cold for it to be subtropical IMO.
Well perception does matter. No one forced Koppen to use the word subtropical to describe 4 season temperate regions like New York City. The word tropical has a certain meaning in the public mind. He simply could have used different terminology or he could have broken up his subtropical into several different zones. Köppen climate classification - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (Florida and New York do not belong in the same zone).
It would be just as wrong if he called New York subarctic because it has more than 2 feet of snow a year on average.
There are some bad winters when we hardly get any snow. In 2011 NYC only got 7.4 inches but the year before we got a respectable 51" and the year before that 61.9".
Perception shouldn't matter in my opinion, many perceptions are inaccurate, I used to have inaccurate perceptions about London, Seattle, and San Francisco. Many people wouldn't have put "NYC" and "hurricane" in the same sentence before Sandy, NYC isn't associated with tornadoes despite having eight of them touch down in the past five years, and I doubt many would suspect NYC to be mild enough to support palm trees, but it is. NYC is also 100% urban in the minds of many, but that couldn't be further from the truth.
Central Park's winter 2011-2012 snow total of 7 inches is actually closer to average than the monstrous snow totals in the two winters that came prior. JFK saw 3 inches that winter. And I'm not against the humid subtropical climate being split in two, however, grouping northern Cfa areas in with the Dfa climate is something I don't agree with, it doesn't make sense to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LRUA
NYC is clearly continental.
Nobody says, "Gee let's go to subtropical New York in january to have
some fun in the sun", LOL
No one says "Gee, let's go to continental New York in January to have some fun in the sun" either.
So I guess it isn't anything lol.
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