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I personally agree that most of the US south is subtropical, on a whole winters there are mostly mild-warm.. it is just when people start claiming that Washington, NYC and even BOSTON are subtropical that it becomes a joke.. all of the three previous cities have regular snow, so they are not subtropical.
New Orleans and much of the south, whilst occasionally getting cold snaps not normal for their latitude, are hot and humid for 6 months of the year and warm for 2 more months which is enough for it to be subtropical.
I still agree that the temp swings are more severe than anywhere else. What I learned on this trip was how quickly things grow back, and also how really subtropical it looks in reality vs google streetview. Streetview is limited.
I couldn't see hardly any CIDP's on streetview in coastal Alabama. When I drove around there I saw them on just about every block lol. I saw loads of citrus trees in backyards which you don't see on streetview.
So the trip did change my mind in that way.
I'm sure you can grow dooryard citrus in France in places like Nice and other mild areas. For this awful subtropical climate the US has, we are the third largest citrus producer in the world behind Brazil and China. France doesn't even grow citrus commercially as I assume the area to grow it reliably and decent tasting enough would be very small. Only a small part of France is as warm as Nice in winter.
Here is a pic of a commercial citrus farm in Alabama I visited on my trip. I got there on Saturday with all kinds of insects buzzing around me and temps in the low 80'sF. They have over 500 orange trees at this site, and 500 at another. I had a great tour. I'm going to order oranges from them next Fall and they will ship navel oranges, grapefruits, lemons, etc.
The orange trees were blooming and smelled amazing. They didn't lose a tree this winter which was one of the coldest in years. That says something.
Nice photos, and the New Orleans as well. It's good regular plant photos, rather than ones that focus on outstanding examples.
The citrus orchard looks just like ones here, and even use the same soft pine shelter belts.
The big advantage of the South, is that warm/hot temperatures still make growing subtropical plants well worthwhile to the home gardener. Having an orange tree killed by frost, isn't such a problem when you can replace it within a few weeks, and still get fruit the following season.
I would find it harder watching plants grow for years, only to produce no fruit.
Pumelo, kumquat and citron are rather cold hardy, unlike sweet oranges.
My point was that some posters always seem to insinuate the whole of the US is arctic like in winter including the South lol, or that only a tiny sliver is subtropical. FlamingGalah said something like "extreme southern coastal fringe". That is not accurate at all. Further up in this thread I posted an image from GoogleEarth showing the area of the South most people would consider subtropical. The area within that line is around 165,000 square miles (including FL and TX), hardly a "fringe".
Even places north of the line I showed such as Nathez, MS, Monroe, LA, Columbus, GA, Montgomery, AL are quite warm in winter when looking at their averages. It is not like these places have a winter like this last one every year. I know folks on the other forum from places in the inland South that grow oranges and date palms unprotected including this bad winter and they survived.
Waycross GA of which I posted pics previously showing Queen Palms and date palms is 60 miles inland. The area of Florida alone is larger than England and Wales combined.
Temperatures in Spain and France drop also when you head inland.
Look at a place like Avignon inland from the coast in France, or Zaragosa, Spain. They are not as warm as Nice or Barcelona.
Avignon has a winter mean high/low of around 51/36F. Zaragosa 53/38F. Well Natchez, MS far from the coast averages 61/40F, Montgomery, AL 60/37F, and Columbus, GA 60/39F. If these US cities are not subtropical, they certainly aren't in the same league as London, New York, Vancouver, Toronto, Paris, Moscow, etc.
But again what you may class as mild/cold would be different to what someone from Europe may class as mild/cold... It is completely subjective if someone thinks that winters there can be 'freezing cold' or not...
And it is no different to 99% of posters slating the climate of the UK because of stereotypes
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yn0hTnA
See, this man seems happy. Why? Because he knows he lives in the subtropical paradise of the Coastal South.
But again what you may class as mild/cold would be different to what someone from Europe may class as mild/cold... It is completely subjective if someone thinks that winters there can be 'freezing cold' or not...
And it is no different to 99% of posters slating the climate of the UK because of stereotypes
I doubt very much that that particular man would have been very happy growing up in the south!
And what UK posters consider warm summer weather just about no one here in my area would consider "warm" summer conditions. But when we claim that you all howl in protest and rightly so.
I doubt anyone in Europe would consider 60F winter high temps as "cold". Very few places in Europe have an avg high temp in winter of 60F.
You seem to focus only on the cold anomalies here which def happen more than in Europe. But "average" conditions matter a lot. It would be similar to me focusing on some of your lousy summers in the past years and claiming how awfully cold and damp the UK is in summer.
London Heathrow between 1984 and 2013 averaged 34.5 days with a max temp less than 70F for June, July and August, and around 9.5 days in the month of July with a temp less than 70F. Heathrow also averaged 9.6 days in July with a max temp over 77F. Maybe I'm wrong but seems to me quite a few posters from the UK seem to focus on those warm days and rarely mention the cold days in the 60'sF?
In reality the average summer temps in London are decent given the latitude and warm for an oceanic type climate. The same applies to the winter average temps in the Southeastern US in winter, even inland areas like Atlanta that have an avg high of 55F for the three winter months (and over 1000ft in elevation).
There is no where in the UK that comes to close to the winter temperature averages of places like Natchez, MS or Columbus, GA, and very few places inland in southern Europe.
London Heathrow between 1984 and 2013 averaged 34.5 days with a max temp less than 70F for June, July and August, and around 9.5 days in the month of July with a temp less than 70F. Heathrow also averaged 9.6 days in July with a max temp over 77F. Maybe I'm wrong but seems to me quite a few posters from the UK seem to focus on those warm days and rarely mention the cold days in the 60'sF?
Where did that come from? For the 1981-2010 period, June averages 14 days below 70F, with July and August having 7 each. That's 28 days below 70F for the summer. July also averages 11 days above 25C, and August 9 days, so clearly 77F+ is more common than <70 in those 2 months (June's average is 70F).
Something like 85% of days in summer reach 20C+, and just over 100 days throughout the year (not bad for an island at 51N). Everybody else outside the UK only focuses on the cold/wet/windy days, even though they are in the minority.
Where did that come from? For the 1981-2010 period, June averages 14 days below 70F, with July and August having 7 each. That's 28 days below 70F for the summer. July also averages 11 days above 25C, and August 9 days, so clearly 77F+ is more common than <70 in those 2 months (June's average is 70F).
1984 to 2013. From Climvis NOAA for Heathrow Airport.
If you want I will email you the huge excel spreadsheet printout, and the excel COUNTIFS function that caluclated those days from actual Heathrow data.
Check the data for yourself. Go look at Tutimep on the date July 13,1988. NOAA says Heathrow max temp of 67.1 and min of 54.7. Tutiempo has 19.5C and 12.6C. On July 12th 1997 NOAA has 77F/55.8 and Tutiempo has 25/13.2C. NOAA has all the data for many cities in the UK.
Last edited by tom77falcons; 04-25-2014 at 11:36 AM..
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