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I'm only interested in classifications, as a way of explaining why a place has the climate it has. If I want to know the weather, I'll just look on wiki.
If PNW has 8-10 months of cold cloudy weather. Does that mean all oceanic climates have 8-10 moths of cold cloudy weather?
I suppose you could have a "subtropical oceanic climate" but to me the term implies that cool/cold weather dominates and this is what makes it different from a Med climate more than anything.
I suppose you could have a "subtropical oceanic climate" but to me the term implies that cool/cold weather dominates and this is what makes it different from a Med climate more than anything.
Plenty of Oceanic climates have winters as warm as European Med climates, and still warm summers. So II don't think those climates could be regarded as being dominated by cold. They aren't subtropical though.
I don't see any point in breaking classifications into smaller groupings, if the cause of the climate is still the same.
I suppose you could have a "subtropical oceanic climate" but to me the term implies that cool/cold weather dominates and this is what makes it different from a Med climate more than anything.
I think the idea that Med climates are dominated by warmth isn't quite correct. San Francisco has cold oceanic winds 12 months a year. The Mediterranean cities of Europe have surprisingly cool, dreary winters. The tourist brochures show summer sun, not winter blah. Most of the French Riviera has average highs around 50F/10C in January which isn't far off Seattle. It's just a matter of degree.
I don't think the PNW is a full med climate. I just think the rainshadow zones are somewhere between oceanic and med. You can't really classify it fully as either.
I think the idea that Med climates are dominated by warmth isn't quite correct. San Francisco has cold oceanic winds 12 months a year. The Mediterranean cities of Europe have surprisingly cool, dreary winters. The tourist brochures show summer sun, not winter blah. Most of the French Riviera has average highs around 50F/10C in January which isn't far off Seattle. It's just a matter of degree.
I don't think the PNW is a full med climate. I just think the rainshadow zones are somewhere between oceanic and med. You can't really classify it fully as either.
Rainshadow doesn't explain the dry summer, or winter to summer rainfall ratio of most of the western PNW. My understanding, is that it's the duration of a single high pressure zone during the summer months, which is the cause. Contrast that to my climate, where summer will see a multitude of polar and subtropical fronts, as well as three to four completely unrelated high pressure cells within a month.
Oceanic climates don't have semi permanent high pressure, while all Mediterranean climates do. Seattle's weather systems resemble Rome much more than they resemble my climate's weather systems.
Classifying climates by temperature and sunshine will always be problematic, and invariably will lead to the terms marginal, transitional, and anomaly been frequently used, as well go nowhere arguments, about the meaning of cool, warm, hot etc.
Classifying climate, by the root cause and nature of their weather systems, will always make more sense, and will actually provide understanding to a far deeper level.
I think the idea that Med climates are dominated by warmth isn't quite correct. San Francisco has cold oceanic winds 12 months a year. The Mediterranean cities of Europe have surprisingly cool, dreary winters. The tourist brochures show summer sun, not winter blah. Most of the French Riviera has average highs around 50F/10C in January which isn't far off Seattle. It's just a matter of degree.
I don't think the PNW is a full med climate. I just think the rainshadow zones are somewhere between oceanic and med. You can't really classify it fully as either.
I would be willing to agree they're an "in betweener" sort of climate but I still think the climate in the Pacific Northwest resembles your typical Oceanic climate more than your typical Med climate. I also think some parts of the PNW such as Portland and the Fraser Valley of BC have some humid continental influences as well.
Oceanic climates don't have semi permanent high pressure, while all Mediterranean climates do. Seattle's weather systems resemble Rome much more than they resemble my climate's weather systems.
You're focusing on one thing only, there are a number of things that matter. Rome doesn't have semi-permanent low pressure system / constant fronts passing through. Yes, I do know yours doesn't either, but it's an unusual oceanic climate that doesn't fit the usual oceanic climates in most ways. There are always borderline cases and drawing the line is arbitrary and agreement on a definition is unlikely. Most of the classification debates get rather tedious for this reason.
In any case, we're really drifting from the point of this thread.
You're focusing on one thing only, there are a number of things that matter. Rome doesn't have semi-permanent low pressure system / constant fronts passing through. Yes, I do know yours doesn't either, but it's an unusual oceanic climate that doesn't fit the usual oceanic climates in most ways. There are always borderline cases and drawing the line is arbitrary and agreement on a definition is unlikely. Most of the classification debates get rather tedious for this reason.
In any case, we're really drifting from the point of this thread.
My climate does have constant fronts passing through -that's the whole point of why it's oceanic, and that's what the PNW lacks.
My climate isn't an unusual Oceanic climate, but one that fits the description very well. It has much more in common with the UK, than the PNW.
There's always borderline cases, because temperature is the main focus of a lot of systems, not weather systems. If systems are the focus, things become much clearer.
It may be tedious to some, but I think science should be the basis for climate classification., not popular opinion, or subjective dribble about what is hot or cold.
This is supposed to be a climate forum, but is fast turning into the ideal holiday weather forum
You're focusing on one thing only, there are a number of things that matter. Rome doesn't have semi-permanent low pressure system / constant fronts passing through. Yes, I do know yours doesn't either, but it's an unusual oceanic climate that doesn't fit the usual oceanic climates in most ways. There are always borderline cases and drawing the line is arbitrary and agreement on a definition is unlikely. Most of the classification debates get rather tedious for this reason.
In any case, we're really drifting from the point of this thread.
But Rome, like the rest of the Mediterranean, receives winter weather systems spawned by the Icelandic Low, which is pretty much analogous to the Alaskan Low.
The Alaskan Low sends low pressure systems spinning all the way down to SoCal - that's how they get their rain, otherwise they would be total deserts and not Mediterranean at all.
My climate does have constant fronts passing through -that's the whole point of why it's oceanic, and that's what the PNW lacks.
My climate isn't an unusual Oceanic climate, but one that fits the description very well. It has much more in common with the UK, than the PNW.
There's always borderline cases, because temperature is the main focus of a lot of systems, not weather systems. If systems are the focus, things become much clearer.
It may be tedious to some, but I think science should be the basis for climate classification., not popular opinion, or subjective dribble about what is hot or cold.
This is supposed to be a climate forum, but is fast turning into the ideal holiday weather forum
I agree with you by the way, but I feel that the rainshadow is crucial to the PNW classification as 'mediterranean.' If you look at the Pacific coast (i.e. the rainforest part) you'll see that summers get just enough rain that there's no drought there. This is because the PNW is far enough north that the Pacific High isn't quite as powerful in the summer as it is in most med climates, where it's so powerful that no weather systems can break through. The PNW can get summer low pressure systems but they're very weak, and by the time they hit the mountains, they lose all or most of their precip - hence the rainshadow zones are almost completely dry, while the exposed coastline gets enough dribs and drabs in the summer to prevent drought.
Summer drought on the exposed Pacific coast doesn't really develop until you hit central Oregon.
I agree with you by the way, but I feel that the rainshadow is crucial to the PNW classification as 'mediterranean.' If you look at the Pacific coast (i.e. the rainforest part) you'll see that summers get just enough rain that there's no drought there. This is because the PNW is far enough north that the Pacific High isn't quite as powerful in the summer as it is in most med climates, where it's so powerful that no weather systems can break through. The PNW can get summer low pressure systems but they're very weak, and by the time they hit the mountains, they lose all or most of their precip - hence the rainshadow zones are almost completely dry, while the exposed coastline gets enough dribs and drabs in the summer to prevent drought.
Summer drought on the exposed Pacific coast doesn't really develop until you hit central Oregon.
I guess it's probably similar to the Iberian peninsula creating drier conditions on the Mediterranean side, than the Atlantic side.
Your description of weak summer lows sounds Mediterranean. Quite different to Oceanic summers, where summer lows can be strong and frequent.
My climate is a rainshadow also, and only gets hammered when subtropical lows pass over the centre of the country, which brings heavy rain off the sea,
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