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Old 04-20-2015, 01:37 PM
 
Location: New York
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When did we begin classifying climates based on record lows?
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Old 04-20-2015, 01:42 PM
 
Location: Broward County, FL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Infamous92 View Post
When did we begin classifying climates based on record lows?
Well, record lows speak of how far from the average cold snaps can be. It tells you what to expect. If I see a climate with an average low of 50 F but a record low of 16 F, versus an average low of 50 F and a record low of 36 F, it's quite obvious that cold snaps are potent there. I would expect freezing lows a few times a year in the first climate.


Just like how Melbourne has an average high of 78 F in January, but a record high of 115 F. Anyone who would just look at the averages of Melbourne would never guess that it was capable of 105+ heat.
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Old 04-20-2015, 01:45 PM
B87
 
Location: Surrey/London
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Originally Posted by tom77falcons View Post
Your use of upper and lower case in your screen name smacks of the "cold epoch" poster. Hmmm.
Also has the same name, though spelt without the H this time.
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Old 04-20-2015, 02:16 PM
 
Location: New York
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Originally Posted by alex985 View Post
Well, record lows speak of how far from the average cold snaps can be. It tells you what to expect. If I see a climate with an average low of 50 F but a record low of 16 F, versus an average low of 50 F and a record low of 36 F, it's quite obvious that cold snaps are potent there. I would expect freezing lows a few times a year in the first climate.


Just like how Melbourne has an average high of 78 F in January, but a record high of 115 F. Anyone who would just look at the averages of Melbourne would never guess that it was capable of 105+ heat.
True, I'm not saying record lows don't matter, I just don't get the logic behind it being the basis for climate classification. I certainly wouldn't use record highs to define a climate. "Orlando's not subtropical because its record high isn't at least 40C like (insert city on a different contintent)" sounds ridiculous lol.
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Old 04-20-2015, 02:33 PM
 
Location: Mid Atlantic USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Infamous92 View Post
True, I'm not saying record lows don't matter, I just don't get the logic behind it being the basis for climate classification. I certainly wouldn't use record highs to define a climate. "Orlando's not subtropical because its record high isn't at least 40C like (insert city on a different contintent)" sounds ridiculous lol.

My problem with classifications is that they simply use averages, which are misleading in the eastern US. The west is much more stable than the east in the US. When someone goes to San Diego or LA in winter, you can pretty much count on 60'sF for high/ 40sF for low temps.

All one need do is read a travel blog like this for Orlando, FL:


Bobjanescott's Travel Blog: Orlando, United States - February 19, 2015


"Could it get any colder?

Our plan was to come to Florida for some sunshine and escape the rigours of the English winter - wrong!

We caught the weather forecast first thing this morning for Orlando showing a maximum expected temperature of 49 degrees Fahrenheit, they don't do centigrade over here, with a wind chill taking the temperature down a further ten degrees! I can advise the forecast was 100% correct."


Now when someone goes to Sydney in winter, or Naples, Italy, I'll bet much more often than in Orlando or Charleston those visitors experience temps very close to the averages. Not in the eastern US.

I think there needs to be some kind of way to relate to people just how unstable the winter temps are in the eastern US from the bottom of FL all the way over to Texas and up to Canada. It just is the nature of the geography.

That is why I call them flawed subtropical climates. Who the hell wants to go to Orlando in winter and get a high temp of 48F. Florida certainly doesn't advertise how unstable it is. So, imo, the classification should do it. What good is a climate classification if it doesn't describe what a place is really going to feel like, and not what averages imply which take out all the ups and downs in a high standard deviation climate like the eastern US.
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Old 04-20-2015, 02:55 PM
 
Location: Athens, Greece (Hometowm: Irmo, SC)
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Originally Posted by G8RCAT View Post
The landscape of NSW looks mediterranean to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alex985 View Post
I would honestly draw a line around the 32-33 N mark. Along the I-20 corridor from Dallas east through Louisiana and then through Jackson, MS and Montgomery, AL and then Macon, GA to about Myrtle Beach, SC on the coast. Anywhere north of this line I would consider warm temperate (cities like Atlanta, Birmingham, Little Rock, etc) and south is Sub-tropical (places like Savannah, Tallahassee, etc). It's hard to talk about the Southeastern US and classify it in one climate because it's such a vast region. Kentucky has 0 in common with FL in terms of climate, for example.
Interesting. I think this is more reasonable. Anything around 33 or so would be considered warm temperate unless it is within several miles of the ocean, like Myrtle Beach which would be subtropical by your definition. Anything 32 or below that's inland could be considered subtropical due to the sheer lower latitude. Kentucky and most of Tennessee (besides the Memphis area) I would not see as subtropical. Kentucky gets downright cold.

Quote:
Originally Posted by irlinit View Post
I would agree with this.. even Atlanta has cold winters and does not deserve the title subtropical
I cant disagree with you on this. Atlanta is interesting because of elevation. The northern suburbs of Atlanta get colder than the city of Atlanta and south of Atlanta as you move down the foothills of the Appalachians and well into the piedmont and sandhill regions. It's a mixed bag and it comes down to everyones definition of subtropical. Due to sheer elevation (900-1,000 feet), I'd agree that Atlanta Isn't subtropical.
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Old 04-20-2015, 03:12 PM
 
Location: Athens, Greece (Hometowm: Irmo, SC)
2,124 posts, read 2,246,872 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom77falcons View Post
My problem with classifications is that they simply use averages, which are misleading in the eastern US. The west is much more stable than the east in the US. When someone goes to San Diego or LA in winter, you can pretty much count on 60'sF for high/ 40sF for low temps.

All one need do is read a travel blog like this for Orlando, FL:


Bobjanescott's Travel Blog: Orlando, United States - February 19, 2015


"Could it get any colder?

Our plan was to come to Florida for some sunshine and escape the rigours of the English winter - wrong!

We caught the weather forecast first thing this morning for Orlando showing a maximum expected temperature of 49 degrees Fahrenheit, they don't do centigrade over here, with a wind chill taking the temperature down a further ten degrees! I can advise the forecast was 100% correct."


Now when someone goes to Sydney in winter, or Naples, Italy, I'll bet much more often than in Orlando or Charleston those visitors experience temps very close to the averages. Not in the eastern US.

I think there needs to be some kind of way to relate to people just how unstable the winter temps are in the eastern US from the bottom of FL all the way over to Texas and up to Canada. It just is the nature of the geography.

That is why I call them flawed subtropical climates. Who the hell wants to go to Orlando in winter and get a high temp of 48F. Florida certainly doesn't advertise how unstable it is. So, imo, the classification should do it. What good is a climate classification if it doesn't describe what a place is really going to feel like, and not what averages imply which take out all the ups and downs in a high standard deviation climate like the eastern US.
I think you begin to push it a little bit when you start noting an opinion written travel blog denouncing one of the 3 days a year on average that Orlando gets down to above freezing temperatures WITH wind chill as a "flawed" subtropical climate? Orlando Isn't tropical, you may be could make the argument for it, but I for one would agree it's not. But are you questioning the fact that Orlando Isn't a true subtropical climate because of above freezing temperatures and some wind chill? I believe you're starting to merge the idea of a subtropical climate much more closer to a tropical one, rather than an intermediary between the two climates; temperate and tropical.

Look, I've travelled around Greece. Northern Greece, Athens, Greece, Corinth, several islands including one on the Ionian side of Greece. The coldest I've ever been in the middle of July in a subtropical climate, was at my uncle's vacation house outside of Corinth, Greece. While sitting outside with the rhododendron's, his few CIDP's and otherwise tropical looking house, that's the coldest I've been ever been during a July anywhere. Not to mention, he gets snow in the winter some years- a dusting, but still snow. Not to mention, with the mountains, it can get extremely windy. You can see where I'm going with this... But, what gives? I understand most of your viewpoints, but up until this point... Sorry man but I got to call ya out on this one lol
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Old 04-20-2015, 03:14 PM
 
Location: Massachusetts
264 posts, read 386,350 times
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Originally Posted by irlinit View Post
But Boston is a subtropical paradise! Look at those winters, heavenly and mild.. and gosh those tropical summers are just paradise! IMO the subtropical line goes right up to northern Maine!!!!!!!!!!!
Haha why you picking on my city?
No one here EVER claimed to be warm, ever. LOL
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Old 04-20-2015, 03:24 PM
 
Location: Mid Atlantic USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smithgn View Post
I think you begin to push it a little bit when you start noting an opinion written travel blog denouncing one of the 3 days a year on average that Orlando gets down to above freezing temperatures WITH wind chill as a "flawed" subtropical climate? Orlando Isn't tropical, you may be could make the argument for it, but I for one would agree it's not. But are you questioning the fact that Orlando Isn't a true subtropical climate because of above freezing temperatures and some wind chill? I believe you're starting to merge the idea of a subtropical climate much more closer to a tropical one, rather than an intermediary between the two climates; temperate and tropical.

Look, I've travelled around Greece. Northern Greece, Athens, Greece, Corinth, several islands including one on the Ionian side of Greece. The coldest I've ever been in the middle of July in a subtropical climate, was at my uncle's vacation house outside of Corinth, Greece. While sitting outside with the rhododendron's, his few CIDP's and otherwise tropical looking house, that's the coldest I've been ever been during a July anywhere. Not to mention, he gets snow in the winter some years- a dusting, but still snow. Not to mention, with the mountains, it can get extremely windy. You can see where I'm going with this... But, what gives? I understand most of your viewpoints, but up until this point... Sorry man but I got to call ya out on this one lol

Look at monthly standard deviations of temp in the US. First thing you will notice is how low they are out west in places like Phoenix and LA. Then look at Orlando, Mobile, etc and you see 10F for the standard deviation on high/low temps in January. That is very high when you consider that is just one standard deviation. When you move to two standard deviations, which would be expected every winter, you are looking at 20F. That means any give day in winter there can be expected to go that far from avg. That is a lot more rare in the west or especially in Australia, Argentina, Chile, South Africa, southern Europe, etc.

I'm not saying Orlando isn't subtropical, just saying how do we include the wide temp variations to convey what to expect in an average winter day. Isn't that what classifications are for?
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Old 04-20-2015, 03:31 PM
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Location: Western Massachusetts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom77falcons View Post
Look at monthly standard deviations of temp in the US. First thing you will notice is how low they are out west in places like Phoenix and LA. Then look at Orlando, Mobile, etc and you see 10F for the standard deviation on high/low temps in January. That is very high when you consider that is just one standard deviation. When you move to two standard deviations, which would be expected every winter, you are looking at 20F. That means any give day in winter there can be expected to go that far from avg. That is a lot more rare in the west or especially in Australia, Argentina, Chile, South Africa, southern Europe, etc.
Orlando is a bit below 10°F standard deviation for highs:

KISSIMMEE 2, FLORIDA 30 Year Daily Summary ,1981-2010 (WRCC)

The best comparison to the US south in both geography and climate type is eastern China not any of the places you listed.

Quote:
I'm not saying Orlando isn't subtropical, just saying how do we include the wide temp variations to convey what to expect in an average winter day. Isn't that what classifications are for?
No, that's not what climate classifications are for. Climate classifications are meant to describe the prevailing weather patterns and air masses, the controls and general climate patterns not details. By general patterns, Orlando fits "humid subtropical" exactly: warm season hot and humid weather, tropically sourced; cool season cooler and more continental derived weather. It's exactly what would be expected for east coast continent. The "textbook" climate on a hypothetical climate shows this well:

http://www.colorado.edu/geography/cl...oContinent.pdf

It's a good illustration of how climate types come naturally from geography. Eastern Argentina, eastern China and the southeastern US and to some extent eastern Australia have similar geography but due to differences in continental geography the details of the climate are different. But the general climate controls, air masses are similar and they should all be grouped together.
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