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Its also mountain ranges. The sierras/cascade mountains and rockies are angled a bit in a NW direction and block a lot of cold air fronts from dipping down from the arctic. Unfortunately the south is flat and cold air can blast all the way down to the deep south from time to time uninpeded if the jet stream drops.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tom77falcons
99.9% of climatologists would mock this crazy idea that the east is in the midst of a "cold epoch" and the west isn't. This is just so silly I don't know how anyone can take any of his posts seriously. It is utter nonsense without any factual backing. Over and over people have asked for proof via scientific journals etc. And what do we get? Just the same claptrap he keeps regurgitating. According to him, the whole planet is now out of their "cold epoch", but only eastern North America is under a "cold epoch". Laughable.
This past winter I listened to national meteo's discussing the cold that at one point went westward to CA. They talked about how rare it is and what has to happen for it to occur. Basically the Rocky Mountains protect them, but once in a while the arctic air can bleed thru the mountain passes and make its way westward. Even then, the low temps latitude for latitude are nothing like what happens in the east. Just look at record low temps. In the last 31 years Phoenix has gone no lower than 26F. They are higher in latitude than Savannah, GA.
The old "mountain" argument again.
It's actually a pretty weak explanation of why the South supposedly is the subtropical region most prone to cold, when you consider that, just like North America, South America also lacks east-west mountains, and extends quite far to the poles, and yet cities on the continent don't have the record lows near the magnitude of the American cities. Furthermore, the US does have plenty of mountains/highlands, like the Appalachians, or the Ozark/Ouachita mountains, and yet cold never is mitigated.
Even with a lack of East-west mountain ranges, much of eastern North America, in a natural state, would still maintain a warm, stable climate, because the jet-stream would still maintain its correct, zonal flow, effectively separating the cold from the warm. It only takes something like a Cold Epoch to induce the atmospheric dynamics that allow for the jet-stream to dip in the East, and bring cold to the region during winter. Cold Epoch conditions affect other continents regardless of presence, or absence of mountains; mountains still mitigate cold, but the Cold Epoch is powerful to override the effect. For such reasons, cold never seems mitigated by the Ozarks, or Appalachian mountain ranges, or by bodies of water like the Great Lakes, all natural barriers that exist in the East US. Other areas have seen this effect; in times of Spanish Exploration of the West Coast, the Western US was under a Cold Epoch, where ice hung over the Big Sur coast, and even Monterrey, CA had a climate like Reno, Nevada. All this when mountains protected the region: About California's Climate and Such
Also, places in the South like H-Town, Galveston, and NOLA had winter min temps no lower than the 20s for the past 30s years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BMI
Exactly.
Atlanta and Phoenix are at about the same Latitude, about same elevation 1000 ft ASL
But that is where the comparison ends.....Phoenix is much warmer in winter (not to mention summer)
Phoenix is zone 9b (almost 10a)
Atlanta is 8a (maybe borderline 8b)
Phoenix never gets subfreezing highs, Atlanta almost every winter.
And yet if you study the natural flora and fauna seen in both regions, you can see that Atlanta's natural ecosystem is just as tender to cold temps as that seen around Phoenix, or even less tender. That allows the common man to figure out that Atlanta's ecosystem, for much of time, experienced a climate with winters just as warm as Phoenix's, or even warmer, and that this proneness of cold exhibited by Atlanta, and the rest of the Southeast, is unnatural for the region, and quite temporary, induced only by a phenomenon like the Cold Epoch.
I just laugh when people on this forum call the South a "weak subtropical climate," especially given that it holds an entire tropical region, South Florida, outside the Tropic of Cancer, at a further latitude away from the equator than all other such subtropical regions in the world (with the exception of South Africa).
Loads of places in the South can grow these tropical plants just as profusely as what is seen in Galveston, indicative of extensive areas of climates featuring winters at least up to 9B.
It's like an argument with one of those loony right wing christian nutters from the deep south US that you see on TV. No matter how much sense you try and talk to them, they just won't listen.
It's like an argument with one of those loony right wing christian nutters from the deep south US that you see on TV. No matter how much sense you try and talk to them, they just won't listen.
I know right? I dish out all the true facts, and yet people on this forum refuse to accept them. They just swallow the data hook, line, and sinker, without any thought to other important factors.
It's like an argument with one of those loony right wing christian nutters from the deep south US that you see on TV. No matter how much sense you try and talk to them, they just won't listen.
So, which is it? Of course it's great to be able to grow a wide variety of palms, but why must tropical plants be the measure of a subtropical climate?
The coastal deep south is in fact a thriving subtropical climate with a uniquely suited biome that is found in neither tropical nor continental climates:
I know right? I dish out all the true facts, and yet people on this forum refuse to accept them. They just swallow the data hook, line, and sinker, without any thought to other important factors.
I do agree most people exaggerate the record lows affect on native flora which is why I would still call the "coastal south" from southeastern NC down to Florida and over to Texas fully subtropical. Even if record lows do kill plants twice a century much of it will just grow back. Plenty of regions (unlike a lot off the south) are susceptible to fires a few times a century which also kills local flora but after the fire it just grows back. Much of the coastal region has warm winter averages that support lots of warm weather plants like live oaks, spanish moss, palmettos, and further down mangroves etc. Very mature plants will be damaged but are better able to tolerate occasional short-term bursts of arctic cold than new growth, which prevents a lot of those warm weather plants from growing further north but still allows them to tolerate some occasional cold temps further down.
The cold epoch thing though is nonsense. If there was a real cold epoch it would affect the entire interior of the country east and west. The Sierras/Cascades and Rockies run at a SW angle and block a lot of cold fronts from heading down. Also, the East to West turning of the Earth means that weather patterns move (outside of hurricanes) from West to East. Unfortunately the massive rocky mountain range nlocks most of the warm oceanic air from travelling further East. Consequently, the eastern area of the USA depends entirely on the Jet Stream to ascertain its weather. And with cold air marching down from Canada and warm air from the gulf uninpeded the weather is often unstable.
Outside the aforementioned coastal subtropical regions the weather is generally warm in the deep south but occasionally susceptible to brutal cold. This means unlike the coastal areas subtropical plants can be grown out of their native range in places like Columbia, Jackson, Atlanta, Dallas etc but it can freeze out and die every decade or 3. Of course it can be replanted, and some is.
I do agree most people exaggerate the record lows affect on native flora which is why I would still call the "coastal south" from southeastern NC down to Florida and over to Texas fully subtropical. Even if record lows do kill plants twice a century much of it will just grow back. Plenty of regions (unlike a lot off the south) are susceptible to fires a few times a century which also kills local flora but after the fire it just grows back. Much of the coastal region has warm winter averages that support lots of warm weather plants like live oaks, spanish moss, palmettos, and further down mangroves etc. Very mature plants will be damaged but are better able to tolerate occasional short-term bursts of arctic cold than new growth, which prevents a lot of those warm weather plants from growing further north but still allows them to tolerate some occasional cold temps further down..
The "coastal south" is what? A tiny strip about 10 miles wide. Once you get any distance inland the lows that occur every few years would kill everthing subtropical. Again, just how subtropical looking is Columbus, GA or Macon, GA, etc. ? In the rest of the world, the subtropical region isn't so severly limited by Arctic blasts.
Also you are wrong about twice a century. If you look at the data as I showed, every 20 years even somewhere like Savannah will drop down cold enough to kill everything but the most cold hardy sabal palmetto. The only palm long term cold hardy in the deep coastal south is sabal palmetto.
None of those flora mentioned are particularly cold hardy at all. They just like hot summers and humidity. The winters in northern Europe wouldn't kill any of those. In my region yes it would be killed cause we get much colder than Western Europe as does where you live.
Quote:
Originally Posted by njbiodude
The cold epoch thing though is nonsense. If there was a real cold epoch it would affect the entire interior of the country east and west. The Sierras/Cascades and Rockies run at a SW angle and block a lot of cold fronts from heading down. Also, the East to West turning of the Earth means that weather patterns move (outside of hurricanes) from West to East. Unfortunately the massive rocky mountain range nlocks most of the warm oceanic air from travelling further East. Consequently, the eastern area of the USA depends entirely on the Jet Stream to ascertain its weather. And with cold air marching down from Canada and warm air from the gulf uninpeded the weather is often unstable..
Quote:
Originally Posted by njbiodude
Outside the aforementioned coastal subtropical regions the weather is generally warm in the deep south but occasionally susceptible to brutal cold. This means unlike the coastal areas subtropical plants can be grown out of their native range in places like Columbia, Jackson, Atlanta, Dallas etc but it can freeze out and die every decade or 3. Of course it can be replanted, and some is.
None of those areas looks remotely subtropical in winter. And I would say they don't look much different than where I live. A major reason is the dead brown grass you see on lawns and highway medians. The summers are so hot, they are stuck growing heat loving grass that turns dead brown in winter. Hence, the deep south landscape looks very brown in winter.
I asked for pics of Columbia SC or anywhere there showing green in winter. No one has posted cause it does look very brown. Just go back thru the winter photo thread and look at pics from Louisiana. It looks no different than PA in winter.
I asked for pics of Columbia SC or anywhere there showing green in winter. No one has posted cause it does look very brown. Just go back thru the winter photo thread and look at pics from Louisiana. It looks no different than PA in winter.
Wait - so in Philadelphia you have mature sabal palms growing, despite an average absolute minimum of 6F? That's pretty amazing!
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