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Both Malta and Southern California (with the exception of L.A-Mex's house) are not warm enough to sustain coco palms. Compared to Malta, Southern California has higher winter daytime averages along with much higher standard deviations for winter heat waves but is also cooler at night on a regular basis and is not as frostproof (except for isolated pockets on the immediate coast and those places also have summer daytime highs that are not warm enough).
OTOH, Phoenix Canariensis can tolerate temperatures as cold as 10 F and do not require heat or strong sunshine hours, even in summer. If they can grow in the U.K, they could grow in Vancouver. Only an extreme once in lifetime cold snap could cause damage.
Erm hate to break it to you but there are Coconut palms growing in southern California & I'm not talking about the now dead one at Newport Beach either... Someone on the IPS forum recently "discovered" one growing in La Qunita & another in the Palm Desert (this one was shamefully chopped down by the new owner of the house)... Is this a coconut or am I dreaming? - Page 14 - DISCUSSING PALM TREES WORLDWIDE - PalmTalk
Yes Malta is that little bit too cool in winter for a coconut, but in the right micro-climate, who knows...
Phoenix canariensis may be able to take 10F/-12C in a dry climate, but in a cool & damp climate such as the UK & Vancouver they can be damaged or killed by -5C/23F when young (& at even higher temperatures when smaller) even mature ones can be killed by -8C/18F. The mature ones growing on the Isles of Scilly were defoliated by -7C/19F in 1987... People had planted them all around the UK due to mild winters, but most were killed in the cold winter of 2010. The only places in the UK where Phoenix canariensis are reliably "hardy" & can be considered long term are the mildest coastal locations & central London (there may be the odd sheltered micro-climate elsewhere too) & these areas are USDA zone 9B...
Yes the data for Valletta is incorrect, for starters it isn't actually data from Valletta (Valletta does not have a weather station) it is from the airport, which is inland & 300ft above sea level, it is also the old 1961-1990 data for the airport too. Temperatures are milder at the coast & especially in urban areas, Valletta is the capital city, think of that extra urban warming too... I estimated the long term averages for here (based on the difference between my temperatures & the airports over the last 2 years & adjusted accordingly) & the mean here in January would work out to 14.0C/57.2F, that is just estimated of course, but for the last 3 winters that I have lived here my January means have been:
2014: 15.2C/59.4F 2015: 14.4C/57.9F 2016: 15.1C/59.2F & last winter was the coldest in Malta for 25 years too...
Proper warm weather normally starts in April, but the temperature can reach around 20C any time during winter. Don't forget that the warm season lasts longer here due to seasonal lag, the sea takes a long time to cool down, so autumn & early winter can still have very warm weather & especially warm nights. The airport, using 1981-2010 data, has 7 months with the average highs above 20C, the Balzan weather station has 8 months above 20C & the estimated averages for here also have 8 months above 20C...
And yes what is wrong with one being grown in a warm micro-climate that can raise the temperature by a couple of degrees, if that is what it takes for one to survive?? That is how the Newport Beach one survived for THIRTY years And you make the point that a CIDP would survive a mild winter in Vancouver, then surely a coconut could survive a mild winter in Valletta. The question wasn't if the palm would be in 100% health or if it would survive long term...
I'm not saying a coconut CAN survive in Malta, it is all purely hypothetical, but for you to make such a factual claim that there is no way it could be done is a little silly, when no one knows for sure as no one has ever tried (to my knowledge) & coconuts have survived for at least a few years in similar tempertures in places such as Newport Beach, southern Spain & Cyprus...
At least a CIDP can look decent after some mild winters in Vancouver...the central part of the city is a few degrees (3-4F) warmer than the airport. A coconut will never look half decent in Malta - imagine something that is 3/4 dead and somehow looks even worse than the Newport palm. Assuming it survives at all of course.
As for the mean temps, they will be negated by the lower avg. highs at the coast (which are already abysmally low). And then for the avg highs over 20C you pull data from inland locations....
And yes I have seen pics of attempted coconuts in the Costa del Sol area and they do not make it.
I would be interested in seeing how your Carpoxylon and Veitchia fare in Malta.
At least a CIDP can look decent after some mild winters in Vancouver...the central part of the city is a few degrees (3-4F) warmer than the airport. A coconut will never look half decent in Malta - imagine something that is 3/4 dead and somehow looks even worse than the Newport palm. Assuming it survives at all of course.
As for the mean temps, they will be negated by the lower avg. highs at the coast (which are already abysmally low). And then for the avg highs over 20C you pull data from inland locations....
And yes I have seen pics of attempted coconuts in the Costa del Sol area and they do not make it.
I would be interested in seeing how your Carpoxylon and Veitchia fare in Malta.
You are of course talking hypothetically about the CIDP in Vancouver too, it could look like crap after a winter, that's if it survives at all of course & funny how Vancouver city centre can be a few degrees warmer than the airport station, but Valletta can't be any warmer than Luqa lol...
And I didn't pull the average highs from inland, they average that here at the coast too
The coconuts planted in southern Spain etc.. didn't die after one winter, some have lasted several years. That would be fine by me, I have never said they could survive here long term...
I get it, you think Malta is like Baffin Island *yawn* but my Carpoxylon & Veitchia have been growing over the winter, sorry to disappoint you, they are not near death
Now let me go & wrap myself up in scarf & gloves to stop me from freezing to death in these "abysmally low" temperatures...
If I lived in Valletta I would try a coconut, no harm trying, same for Vancouver with a CIDP. Both, I think are possible for at least a few years, but I'm thinking the CIDP in Vancouver would have the better chance at long term survival.
You are of course talking hypothetically about the CIDP in Vancouver too, it could look like crap after a winter, that's if it survives at all of course & funny how Vancouver city centre can be a few degrees warmer than the airport station, but Valletta can't be any warmer than Luqa lol...
And I didn't pull the average highs from inland, they average that here at the coast too
The coconuts planted in southern Spain etc.. didn't die after one winter, some have lasted several years. That would be fine by me, I have never said they could survive here long term...
I get it, you think Malta is like Baffin Island *yawn* but my Carpoxylon & Veitchia have been growing over the winter, sorry to disappoint you, they are not near death
Now let me go & wrap myself up in scarf & gloves to stop me from freezing to death in these "abysmally low" temperatures...
I wasn't implying those palms wouldn't survive Malta, just wondering how well they would do. Most of the Veitchia in SoCal usually don't have that "thriving" look and aren't as robust. Carpoxylon of course is a much newer addition. I'm well aware of the palm growing potential in the southern Med.; there is a lot of tropical landscaping in Málaga, Marbella, etc. Even some commercial mango production. Where is this Spanish coconut that you speak of that survives for many years?
Malta is definitely not cold - but there is just not enough heat for coconuts. I'm sure the temps. are very comfortable for people. Are you also saying that Valleta has both higher avg lows and avg highs than inland locations? I would like to see some data. It's almost irrelevant how mild the avg low might be when the avg high is 15C and half of the year is stuck under 20C. The slight temp. difference in Vancouver is much more relevant because the problem for CIDPs in Vancouver is not the avg temps. but the extreme temps.
I wasn't implying those palms wouldn't survive Malta, just wondering how well they would do. Most of the Veitchia in SoCal usually don't have that "thriving" look and aren't as robust. Carpoxylon of course is a much newer addition. I'm well aware of the palm growing potential in the southern Med.; there is a lot of tropical landscaping in Málaga, Marbella, etc. Even some commercial mango production. Where is this Spanish coconut that you speak of that survives for many years?
Malta is definitely not cold - but there is just not enough heat for coconuts. I'm sure the temps. are very comfortable for people. Are you also saying that Valleta has both higher avg lows and avg highs than inland locations? I would like to see some data. It's almost irrelevant how mild the avg low might be when the avg high is 15C and half of the year is stuck under 20C. The slight temp. difference in Vancouver is much more relevant because the problem for CIDPs in Vancouver is not the avg temps. but the extreme temps.
I have seen a Veitchia growing in Malaga, quite a mature one too, so I don't think it will have a problem here as we are much more humid than Spain (& California for that matter too). Carpoxylon seem to be doing well in California so far, obviously most palms I attempt to grow here are pretty much a trial & error process as only a few common palms are available in garden centres, I had to source almost all of my palms as seedlings from abroad... Mangoes also grow in Malta, as well as Papayas & many farmers here also have small banana plantations at the edge of their fields & you can buy locally grown bananas in the shops. The coconut that was growing in southern Spain is now dead, but it did survive for several years, I can't remember exactly where it was growing, but it was somewhere in Andalucia (Almeria or Malaga probably), this was some years ago however, but shows they can grow if only for a few years...
I wouldn't know the average highs/lows for Valletta as there is no weather station there. But it stands to reason that as a city, which is extremely built up & by the sea, that it is going to be warmer than an airport inland. Where I live is also very built up, St Paul's Bay, Bugibba & Qawra merge together to form a large urban sprawl on the north eastern coast, so there will be the benefit of extra urban heating. My temperatures are often higher than those recorded at the airport as warmer air will come up from the south, be cooled as it travels over the sea, then will warm again as it travels over the land. When the reverse happens, with a northerly wind, that cooler air is tempered by the relatively mild sea, so here on the northern coast it doesn't get as cold as elsewhere. The Maltese themselves knew that St Paul's Bay had the best climate in Malta as it was their own "resort" area where they would have their holiday homes, long before the area became a tourist location for overseas visitors. Like I said there are no long term averages for anywhere other than the airport or Balzan, which is also located inland. But my own data from the last 3 winters shows that it is warmer here than inland... And not to be picky but you are still basing all your temperature observations on the airport, the average high at Balzan in the coldest month is 16C & has averages highs of 20C or more for 8 months of the year...
You also keep missing the point in that I said it may be possible in the right micro-climate. I am aware that the average highs are too low, but a micro-climate (against a south facing house wall in full sun, raised bed, filled with sand etc..) would raise the temperature by a couple of degrees, which may be possible to keep one "ticking over" just as the one in Newport Beach did. And unlike Newport Beach we have very hot & humid summers, which would enable a coconut to put on a lot of new growth to replace damaged fronds from the winter cold...
Theoretically both a CIDP in Vancouver & a Coconut in Valletta could survive a winter unprotected. Neither are long term unprotected in either location BUT it is just as likely that a CIDP could be killed by a single cold night in Vancouver as it is a Coconut could die after the winter in Valletta after being too cool for too long
Erm hate to break it to you but there are Coconut palms growing in southern California & I'm not talking about the now dead one at Newport Beach either... Someone on the IPS forum recently "discovered" one growing in La Qunita & another in the Palm Desert (this one was shamefully chopped down by the new owner of the house)... Is this a coconut or am I dreaming? - Page 14 - DISCUSSING PALM TREES WORLDWIDE - PalmTalk
Yes Malta is that little bit too cool in winter for a coconut, but in the right micro-climate, who knows...
Phoenix canariensis may be able to take 10F/-12C in a dry climate, but in a cool & damp climate such as the UK & Vancouver they can be damaged or killed by -5C/23F when young (& at even higher temperatures when smaller) even mature ones can be killed by -8C/18F. The mature ones growing on the Isles of Scilly were defoliated by -7C/19F in 1987... People had planted them all around the UK due to mild winters, but most were killed in the cold winter of 2010. The only places in the UK where Phoenix canariensis are reliably "hardy" & can be considered long term are the mildest coastal locations & central London (there may be the odd sheltered micro-climate elsewhere too) & these areas are USDA zone 9B...
OP said, downtown Vancouver, which is milder than the official weather station at airport.
UHI just like London.
Cocos need a true tropical climate, not warmish med climate of Malta at 36N
OP said, downtown Vancouver, which is milder than the official weather station at airport.
UHI just like London.
Cocos need a true tropical climate, not warmish med climate of Malta at 36N
And they also said in the city of Valletta, not the airport weather station (inland & 300ft asl) where the climate stats for Malta come from...
Cocos nucifera do not actually need a true tropical climate, as they are happily growing in some far from tropical climates... There are some growing in southern California, Madeira & there are even mature ones growing on Porto Santo Island, which lies to the north east of Madeira & has cooler winter highs than Newport Beach has (which also sustained a coconut for 30 odd years)...
No one is debating that a coconut could grow anywhere in Malta, or would be long term, but I think it would be possible to keep one going for a few years at least in the right micro-climate. There was someone in Marbella, southern Spain, that managed to grow coconuts in his garden & they lasted for several years & the average highs there in winter (as well as the lows) are cooler than my location in coastal Malta...
Last edited by flamingGalah!; 02-06-2016 at 07:35 AM..
Erm hate to break it to you but there are Coconut palms growing in southern California & I'm not talking about the now dead one at Newport Beach either... Someone on the IPS forum recently "discovered" one growing in La Qunita & another in the Palm Desert (this one was shamefully chopped down by the new owner of the house)... Is this a coconut or am I dreaming? - Page 14 - DISCUSSING PALM TREES WORLDWIDE - PalmTalk
Yes Malta is that little bit too cool in winter for a coconut, but in the right micro-climate, who knows...
Phoenix canariensis may be able to take 10F/-12C in a dry climate, but in a cool & damp climate such as the UK & Vancouver they can be damaged or killed by -5C/23F when young (& at even higher temperatures when smaller) even mature ones can be killed by -8C/18F. The mature ones growing on the Isles of Scilly were defoliated by -7C/19F in 1987... People had planted them all around the UK due to mild winters, but most were killed in the cold winter of 2010. The only places in the UK where Phoenix canariensis are reliably "hardy" & can be considered long term are the mildest coastal locations & central London (there may be the odd sheltered micro-climate elsewhere too) & these areas are USDA zone 9B...
that's the reason they don't grow here. Our cold is wet, so that makes them less hardy as they are more hardy to dry cold than wet cold. The furthest north unprotected CIDP palms growing in the eastern us as far as I know are in north myrtle beach. They are still alive even after 2 harsh winters. Gary's Nursery this guy has a large palm nursery in eastern nc. He has beautiful pics of giant sabal minor growing wild in nc. and pics of the cidp palms in north myrtle beach. he also does lots of palm landscaping throughout eastern nc including here in Raleigh. Phoenix
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Someone on the IPS forum recently "discovered" one growing in La Qunita & another in the Palm Desert (this one was shamefully chopped down by the new owner of the house)...
And you make the point that a CIDP would survive a mild winter in Vancouver, then surely a coconut could survive a mild winter in Valletta. The question wasn't if the palm would be in 100% health or if it would survive long term...