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Downtown Vancouver has water to the north and to the west,
??? it has the small English Bay to the north and does not border the Salish Sea quite like Sea Island does. Sea Island would have better maritime influence. and also being further west, is not impacted quite as badly from cold snaps. (which originate from the eastern interior) of course we are talking about a difference of 1°F or 2°F but i doubt UHI makes up more than a 3°F advantage. honestly i'm all for debating climate data from airports not properly conveying a city but Vancouver's airport is very close to downtown. its a good approximation. better than most cities.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asagi
plus UHI
its a city of 2 million, its not London. i doubt downtown is more than a degree or two warmer than Sea Island.
Quote:
Originally Posted by deneb78
Downtown Vancouver (Vancouver Harbour weather station) hasn't gone below -10C (14F) in more than 30 years. Coldest temp downtown in recent times was -9C (15F) during the brutal cold snap of December 2008. The downtown is solidly in hardiness zone 9a which in theory should be enough for a CIDP but I know there are other mitigating factors such as microclimate etc which makes this comparison all the more interesting
where did you get this data from? because i seriously doubt it is 9° warmer than Sea Island which is 5 miles to the south.
Why would anyone want to grow a plant that "might" survive? Grow a native plant and there will be no question. I don't understand the obsession some people have with pushing the boundaries of certain species. OK, so a CIDP might survive in Vancouver or a coconut palm might survive in Malta. But is the purpose of gardening to make plants "survive"? I wouldn't think so. Would you rather have an ugly, brown palm on the verge of death or a thriving native plant? For me, the choice is simple.
Yes, I'm more interested in winter hardy fruit and nut trees, like kumquats and olives. Over the life of an olive it's much more likely an unusual winter would kill them, but mature trees are hardier. I had a myrtle that froze out 30 years ago, but it suckered back from the roots and survived.
??? it has the small English Bay to the north and does not border the Salish Sea quite like Sea Island does. Sea Island would have better maritime influence. and also being further west, is not impacted quite as badly from cold snaps. (which originate from the eastern interior) of course we are talking about a difference of 1°F or 2°F but i doubt UHI makes up more than a 3°F advantage. honestly i'm all for debating climate data from airports not properly conveying a city but Vancouver's airport is very close to downtown. its a good approximation. better than most cities.
its a city of 2 million, its not London. i doubt downtown is more than a degree or two warmer than Sea Island.
where did you get this data from? because i seriously doubt it is 9° warmer than Sea Island which is 5 miles to the south.
Vancouver's airport is not that close to downtown. It's about a 30-40 minute drive from downtown to the airport. The airport also has almost no buildings or any development next to it for obvious reasons and so is much more exposed to cold outflow winds coming from the east. Downtown has the benefit of the same maritime influence as the airport PLUS the urban heat island and Downtown Vancouver is very densely populated. In fact, if you count not just downtown which is the most densely populated part of Vancouver but the city limits, it's the 4th most densely populated city in North America after NYC, San Fran and Mexico City. So yes, the UHI is very prominent here.
Here is data from the Vancouver Harbour station that I mentioned in my previous post
Vancouver's airport is not that close to downtown. It's about a 30-40 minute drive from downtown to the airport.
who cares how long of a drive it is... its only 5 miles away...
Quote:
Originally Posted by deneb78
The airport also has almost no buildings or any development next to it for obvious reasons and so is much more exposed to cold outflow winds coming from the east. Downtown has the benefit of the same maritime influence as the airport PLUS the urban heat island and Downtown Vancouver is very densely populated. In fact, if you count not just downtown which is the most densely populated part of Vancouver but the city limits, it's the 4th most densely populated city in North America after NYC, San Fran and Mexico City. So yes, the UHI is very prominent here.
Here is data from the Vancouver Harbour station that I mentioned in my previous post
you're right it might be more, Vancouver is very dense. but i seriously doubt its a 10°F difference.
i'm confused...
Feb 20th, 2008 -8.7°C/16.9°F at Harbor Station (ca data)
Feb 20th, 2008 -14.4°C/6°F at Sea Island (wu data)
Feb 20th, 2008 -15.2°C/4.6°F at Sea Island (ca data)
Feb 20th, 2008 3.9°C/39°F at Harbor, West Vancouver (wu data) wtf?
there are discrepancies everywhere. similarly for the Dec 7th, 2013 cold snap about a 10°F difference as well. 14°F (Sea Island wu) vs 24°F (Harbor Station ca). i'm baffled. that is huge. and then there is 17°F from Harbor, West Vancouver with wunderground, which at least almost makes sense.
who cares how long of a drive it is... its only 5 miles away...
you're right it might be more, Vancouver is very dense. but i seriously doubt its a 10°F difference.
i'm confused...
Feb 20th, 2008 -8.7°C/16.9°F at Harbor Station (ca data)
Feb 20th, 2008 -14.4°C/6°F at Sea Island (wu data)
Feb 20th, 2008 -15.2°C/4.6°F at Sea Island (ca data)
Feb 20th, 2008 3.9°C/39°F at Harbor, West Vancouver (wu data) wtf?
there are discrepancies everywhere. similarly for the Dec 7th, 2013 cold snap about a 10°F difference as well. 14°F (Sea Island wu) vs 24°F (Harbor Station ca). i'm baffled. that is huge. and then there is 17°F from Harbor, West Vancouver with wunderground, which at least almost makes sense.
Feb 20th, 2008 -7.8°C/18°F in Seattle, WA Boeing Field (wu data)
i'm just not sure what to believe anymore...
No from the waterfront station to the Airport is 14km (8.75 miles)... check it out on Google Maps. Also, like I said when you are talking about urban areas, small distances can make a big difference due to how built up they are which is important for marginal palms like CIDP is here.
In addition, I trust Environment Canada more than Weather Underground as that is Canada's official Meteorogical agency like NOAA is for the US. I provided you the link for the Vancouver Harbour station with stats going back to the 1970s.
No from the waterfront station to the Airport is 14km (8.75 miles)... check it out on Google Maps. Also, like I said when you are talking about urban areas, small distances can make a big difference due to how built up they are which is important for marginal palms like CIDP is here.
ok 8.75 miles to the northern waterfront but i was just talking about the centre of city limits which is about 5 miles. i could say 300 ft. from the northern side of Sea Island to Vancouver city limits. this is almost a joke at this point.
i was wrong to think all of Vancouver was pretty much the same (still very suspicious of the 12.3°F difference between the northern waterfront and Sea Island) but you really are stretching it as far as microclimates go. most of the city limits is not 10°F warmer than Sea Island. in fact parts of the city limits are a decent approximation for Sea Island and something to be noted if you are trying to indiscriminately plant a CIDP in Vancouver.
Quote:
Originally Posted by deneb78
In addition, I trust Environment Canada more than Weather Underground as that is Canada's official Meteorogical agency like NOAA is for the US. I provided you the link for the Vancouver Harbour station with stats going back to the 1970s.
fair enough. someone should create a new climate chart for Vancouver and add it to the wiki page alongside the other one for the airport. would be interesting to compare it much like looking at Heathrow vs London's centre. i'll do it if no one else wants to, i can slowly put it together on my free time...
i guess with the way it is now in modern day, sub 10°F might not be possible on the waterfront anymore?
Last edited by Sir Goosenseresworthie; 02-07-2016 at 09:57 PM..
ok 8.75 miles to the northern waterfront but i was just talking about the centre of city limits which is about 5 miles. i could say 300 ft. from the northern side of Sea Island to Vancouver city limits. this is almost a joke at this point.
i was wrong to think all of Vancouver was pretty much the same (still very suspicious of the 12.3°F difference between the northern waterfront and Sea Island) but you really are stretching it as far as microclimates go. most of the city limits is not 10°F warmer than Sea Island. in fact parts of the city limits are a decent approximation for Sea Island and something to be noted if you are trying to indiscriminately plant a CIDP in Vancouver.
fair enough. someone should create a new climate chart for Vancouver and add it to the wiki page alongside the other one for the airport. would be interesting to compare it much like looking at Heathrow vs London's centre. i'll do it if no one else wants to, i can slowly put it together on my free time...
i guess with the way it is now in modern day, sub 10°F might not be possible on the waterfront anymore?
Vancouver is definitely a city of microclimates depending on elevation and distance from the sea. Some microclimates are even colder than Sea Island most definitely and a CIDP should not really be tried in these places. Vancouver Harbour is one of the most favoured if not the most favoured microclimate in the city and a CIDP might have half a chance here but even then colder than normal winters would definitely cause damage. An average winter would be no problem as it usually doesn't go below about 25F there.
The wiki page for Vancouver used to have Vancouver Harbour climate stats along with those from the airport but someone removed them some time ago and I don't really know why
Lots of rumors of what? Coconuts growing in southern California, Madeira & Porto Santos? I posted a link showing the coconut palms in La Qunita & Palm Desert California And google Funchal Marina you can see photos of the coconuts there... Here are some growing on Porto Santo Island (which has cooler average highs than Newport Beach in winter): https://www.360cities.net/image/mira...1.98,9.02,13.1
I never said the Newport Beach coconut was "happily" growing, I stated that there are indeed coconut palms happily growing in areas that are not tropical
It seems you just skim over everything I write in your hurry to write "Coconuts cannot grow in Malta"
For the 83rd time, I never said coconuts CAN grow in Malta, I simply made the point that in a sheltered micro-climate that one could SURVIVE for a few years POSSIBLY I never said it would be "happy" or look in perfect condition...
My brain hurts.
It can't survive in Malta's winters, even in any microclimate, they need up to 5ºC more maximums in the coldest months to survive.
Malta has a very pleasant climate, but it's very mild, the minimums are slightly below the allowance of a Cocos Nucifera, but the maximums are far from what a Coconut needs... 5 months have max. averages under 20ºC/68F, while minimums under 12ºC/53.6F also average 5 months... it needs maximums above 20ºC in the coldest month, and the minimums have to be also above 12ºC if the maximums are only 20ºC, look at Durban for example, the coldest month minimum averages are 10ºC/50F, but the maximum averages are almost 24ºC/75,2F ... the mildest/coolest place in the Earth where a coconut can survive is on Madeira island, they have 14ºC/57.2F minimums and 19ºC/66,2F maximums on Ponta do Sol, which is the warmest zone on the island. Coconuts aren't growing very big in Madeira but they don't look bad at all, it's the limit of growing them.
The winter is too cool in Malta for a coconut... at least if March or April were warmer, but they have maximum averages under 20ºC/68F... but you don't lose nothing trying it .
The warmest winters on Europe (talking about maximums, zones where the max. averages in the coldest month are very close to 20ºC) are on a few zones on the southernmost coast of Spain (some zones on Malaga, Granada and Almeria) and probably a little zone on the Algarve with a warm microclimate, some spots on the southernmost coast of Crete and the southernmost coast of Cyprus.
This is really no contest, no doubt it is Phoenix Canariensis in downtown Vancouver.
Asagi is correct, Cocos Nucifera need heat all year long and Malta, while mild, doesn't have heat all year long. Like Asagi wrote, the absolute minimum average temperature (average of high and low) that they need to just survive is 60F / 15.6C and Valletta's average high in January doesn't even meet this minimum average temperature. I used to try growing Cocos Nucifera in Southern California but failed multiple times unless I took measures to really protect it and even then they eventually died.
Like Southern California, Malta has several climate characteristics that make it extremely difficult to grow (or just survive for a short time) Cocos Nucifera but Malta's are even worse.
1. Wet, cold rain in the winter. Most of Valletta's rain comes in winter and it can get up to 100% more rain than some locations in Southern California such as San Diego (10 inches per year). Cocos Nucifera absolutely hates cold rain, their roots will rot quickly.
2. Low average winter temperatures. Valletta doesn't meet the 60F / 15.5F threshold for several months and is slow to warm up, this is certain doom for Cocos Nucifera. Compare Valletta's January average high of 59F / 15.2C and low of 49F / 9.2 low with Los Angeles's high of 68F / 20.1C and low of 48F / 8.8. What the Southern California desert has going for it is it's quick to warm up and it gets very little winter rain. This probably explains why there are some Cocos Nucifera there. What's more, Valletta doesn't see these temperatures in winter like Los Angeles is this week.
3. Malta is about 2 to 3 degrees further north than Southern California. This may not sound like much but when you are at the extreme margin, every extra bit of daylight and sun angle helps in winter.
By the end of January, the Cocos Nucifera in Valletta would be dead if left unprotected, even if placed in the best microclimate in Malta. The Newport Beach coconut survived 30 years because it probably had the genetic disposition to survive an ice age. In other words, it was a freak.
Cocos Nucifera's only chance of surviving in Malta is to find a freak tree, protect it from winter rain, and place it in the most favored microclimate. Only then would it have a chance to survive a few years.
+1, the best explanation , and also Europe doesn't have those crazy winters that happen on SoCa for El Niño phenomenon... those last days and the incoming days the maximums were and will be about 25-30ºC (77/87F) in LA city , this is impossible in Europe, in fact the historical maximum recorded in December or January in Valletta are under 25ºC/77F, in LA is 33 and 35ºC (92/95F)...
Yes, I'm more interested in winter hardy fruit and nut trees, like kumquats and olives. Over the life of an olive it's much more likely an unusual winter would kill them, but mature trees are hardier. I had a myrtle that froze out 30 years ago, but it suckered back from the roots and survived.
It used to be said that the limit of the Olive, marked the end of the Mediterranean climate.
Not true of of course, but it still marks a climate that has to at the very least, have a mild winter/cool summer to provide reliable cropping.
Other plants could also be used to define winter -how many posters get to feast on black passionfruit or guava, for example?
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And google Funchal Marina you can see photos of the coconuts there... Here are some growing on Porto Santo Island (which has cooler average highs than Newport Beach in winter):
I never said it would be "happy" or look in perfect condition... 
.