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Old 01-13-2019, 05:11 PM
 
Location: Top of the South, NZ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed's Mountain View Post
I doubt either Bergen or Motueka have ever had weeks like the upcoming one in Canberra.


Source: Canberra weather - local weather forecast

This type of week illustrates the problem with Koppen and this system in dealing with locations in southern Australia. Such locations are profoundly continental in the summer with alternating periods of hot and mild weather. Day-to-day weather is thus extremely variable. By contrast, winter is relatively stable day-to-day with a near continuous southwest (i.e. oceanic) flow.

I also wonder if the same issue arises in southern Africa and parts of South America too.
Motueka is in the position where a forecast from Bergen would also be next to impossible for here.

Very few weeks in Bergen would look familiar to here -summer would be the closest, but even then a average warmest month forecast would be about a mid autumn forecast here on average.

I'm not looking to Koppen to tell me what the weather is like, just what the classifications are. Those mild summer spells in Canberra, have the same reason as they do here, and I know from experience, that they are a definite quality of the summer there.
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Old 01-13-2019, 05:20 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe90 View Post
Motueka is in the position where a forecast from Bergen would also be next to impossible for here.

Very few weeks in Bergen would look familiar to here -summer would be the closest, but even then a average warmest month forecast would be about a mid autumn forecast here on average.

I'm not looking to Koppen to tell me what the weather is like, just what the classifications are. Those mild summer spells in Canberra, have the same reason as they do here, and I know from experience, that they are a definite quality of the summer there.
Whether or not forecasts can be similar doesn't matter. What matters is that Canberra and Bergen are similar enough on a global scale, and I would say they are.
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Old 01-13-2019, 05:21 PM
 
Location: Top of the South, NZ
22,219 posts, read 21,484,935 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arcleo
Canberra is still broadly temperate oceanic or maybe subtropical highland. Temperate = between subpolar and subtropical while Oceanic = heavily affected by the moderating effects of oceans. Canberra is too cool to be considered subtropical.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roseburg,_Oregon#Climate has warmer summers than Canberra and is almost as prone to heat waves as Canberra. Roseburg's mean maximum is 103F (39.4C). Yet Roseburg is still Csb/dry-summer oceanic under Koppen's system simply due to mild averages and cool nights.
I don't think that's entirely correct -most places by the sea are heavily moderated by the sea.

Cfb climates are moderated because they're more likely to get the effects of polar fronts during summer, and subtropical lows during winter - my climate for example, is typically near or above the 22C threshold during summer subtropical lows(which are off the ocean) but there are more cold fronts and they drop drop the avearge substantially lower.

Last edited by Yac; 10-19-2020 at 01:36 AM..
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Old 01-13-2019, 05:23 PM
 
Location: Top of the South, NZ
22,219 posts, read 21,484,935 times
Reputation: 7608
Quote:
Originally Posted by arcleo
Whether or not forecasts can be similar doesn't matter. What matters is that Canberra and Bergen are similar enough on a global scale, and I would say they are.
Sure, when subjectivity is the guiding principle, it's a bit hard to argue against that.

Last edited by Yac; 10-19-2020 at 01:37 AM..
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Old 01-13-2019, 05:26 PM
 
895 posts, read 593,798 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe90 View Post
I don't think that's entirely correct -most places by the sea are heavily moderated by the sea.

Cfb climates are moderated because they're more likely to get the effects of polar fronts during summer, and subtropical lows during winter - my climate for example, is typically near or above the 22C threshold during summer subtropical lows(which are off the ocean) but there are more cold fronts and they drop drop the avearge substantially lower.
This still holds true in Canberra's case and Canberra does not have enough continental influence for its climate to be either continental. Lower annual ranges tend to correspond to fronts that determine an oceanic climate.
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Old 01-13-2019, 05:29 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada
5,591 posts, read 3,426,169 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe90 View Post
Motueka is in the position where a forecast from Bergen would also be next to impossible for here.

Very few weeks in Bergen would look familiar to here -summer would be the closest, but even then a average warmest month forecast would be about a mid autumn forecast here on average.

I'm not looking to Koppen to tell me what the weather is like, just what the classifications are. Those mild summer spells in Canberra, have the same reason as they do here, and I know from experience, that they are a definite quality of the summer there.
The mild spells in Canberra might be quite similar to Motueka but what Motueka lacks are the spells of desert-like heat that Canberra is prone to.

Also, nobody has mentioned that a lot of the similarity between Canberra and Motueka is due to Canberra being about 600m above sea level. If we compare a low-elevation location like Albury to Motueka the climates start to look a lot different.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albury#Climate
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Old 01-13-2019, 05:38 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada
5,591 posts, read 3,426,169 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arcleo
Canberra is still broadly temperate oceanic or maybe subtropical highland. Temperate = between subpolar and subtropical while Oceanic = heavily affected by the moderating effects of oceans. Canberra is too cool to be considered subtropical.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roseburg,_Oregon#Climate has warmer summers than Canberra and is almost as prone to heat waves as Canberra. Roseburg's mean maximum is 103F (39.4C). Yet Roseburg is still Csb/dry-summer oceanic under Koppen's system simply due to mild averages and cool nights.
There's a continental quality to Canberra's climate that becomes apparent in the summer.

It's different from the Northern Hemisphere where continental climates have stable summers and highly variable winters. This creates a large annual temperature range.

In southern Australia the large annual temperature range is absent because of the mild, stable winters.Does that make those places oceanic? Maybe, but it's a different type of oceanic than in the Northern Hemisphere.

Last edited by Yac; 10-19-2020 at 01:37 AM..
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Old 01-13-2019, 05:39 PM
 
Location: Top of the South, NZ
22,219 posts, read 21,484,935 times
Reputation: 7608
Quote:
Originally Posted by arcleo
This still holds true in Canberra's case and Canberra does not have enough continental influence for its climate to be either continental. Lower annual ranges tend to correspond to fronts that determine an oceanic climate.
Which is really just what Koppen says -the big difference is that Koppen doesn't refer to similar climates, only similar genetics - he wasn't implying that Brisbane and NYC share similar day to day weather.

Last edited by Yac; 10-19-2020 at 01:37 AM..
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Old 01-13-2019, 05:46 PM
 
Location: Top of the South, NZ
22,219 posts, read 21,484,935 times
Reputation: 7608
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed's Mountain View Post
The mild spells in Canberra might be quite similar to Motueka but what Motueka lacks are the spells of desert-like heat that Canberra is prone to.

Also, nobody has mentioned that a lot of the similarity between Canberra and Motueka is due to Canberra being about 600m above sea level. If we compare a low-elevation location like Albury to Motueka the climates start to look a lot different.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albury#Climate
I've spent a fair bit of time in Shepparton during summer (and also some time in Albury and Canberra during summer).

The summers are profoundly Oceanic during summer, in a way that feels even more oceanic during summer than here -those cold changes are in such stark contrast to the preceding continental weather, that they really seem to define summer for me(not in duration, but character)

Motueka by comparison seems much like business as usual between fronts of varying origin -probably because the warmest days come from the cold fronts, while the warmest nights come from the subtropical lows.

I don't actually claim similarity between Canberra and Motueka btw -they feel very different to me.
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Old 01-13-2019, 05:53 PM
 
213 posts, read 171,908 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QIDb602 View Post
Seeing problems in Koppen and Trewartha's climate classification systems and for fun, I have decided to create my own climate classification system. This is how it works:

First letter (temperature):

A - Tropical (all months average at least 18 C)
B - Subtropical (average annual temperature is at least 16 C, climate is not tropical)
C - Temperate (average annual temperature is at least 8 C but less than 16 C)
D - Subpolar (average annual temperature is less than 8 C, climate is not tundra)
E - Tundra (all months average below 10 C)

Second letter for tropical climates (precipitation):

Af - Tropical Rainforest (all months have at least 60 mm of precipitation)
Am - Tropical Monsoon (6 continuous months have at least 1200 mm of precipitation, not a tropical rainforest)
Aw - Tropical Savannah (no 6 continuous months have at least 1200 mm of precipitation, not a tropical rainforest)
Aa - Tropical Semi-Arid (total precipitation is less than the annual average temperature multiplied by 20, plus the percentage of precipitation in the 6 warmest continuous months multiplied by 280, not arid)
AA - Tropical Arid (total precipitation is less than the annual average temperature multiplied by 10, plus the percentage of precipitation in the 6 warmest continuous months multiplied by 140)

Second letter for subtropical, temperate, and subpolar climates (continentality):

c - Continental* (difference between mean temperatures in the hottest and coldest month is greater than or equal to 33 C minus the average annual temperature)
o - Oceanic* (difference between mean temperatures in the hottest and coldest month is less than 33 C minus the average annual temperature)

*"Continental" and "oceanic" here only refer to the amount of seasonality.

Second letter for tundra climates (temperature):

ET - Tundra (warmest month averages at least 0 C)
EI - Ice cap (warmest month averages below 0 C)

Third letter for subtropical, temperate, and subpolar climates (precipitation):

s - Summer dry season (Precipitation in the 3 coldest continuous months is at least 2 times the precipitation in the 3 warmest continuous months, not arid/semi-arid)
w - Winter dry season (Precipitation in the 3 warmest continuous months is at least 4 times the precipitation in the 3 coldest continuous months, not arid/semi-arid)
f - No dry season (No summer dry season or winter dry season, not arid/semi-arid)
a - Semi-arid (total precipitation is less than the annual average temperature multiplied by 20, plus the percentage of precipitation in the 6 warmest continuous months multiplied by 280, not arid)
A - arid (total precipitation is less than the annual average temperature multiplied by 10, plus the percentage of precipitation in the 6 warmest continuous months multiplied by 140)

Examples:

London: Cof
New York City: Ccf
Beijing: Ccw
Dubai: AA
Hong Kong: Bcw
Paris: Cof
Shanghai: Bcf
Singapore: Af
Sydney: Bof
Tokyo: Ccf
Bangkok: Am
Istanbul: Cos
Los Angeles: Boa
Mexico City: Bow
Moscow: Dof
Madrid: Ccs
Miami: Aw
Johannesburg: Cow
Lisbon: Bos
Montreal: Dcf
Riyadh: BcA
Santiago: Coa

What do you think?
Interestingly, in Brazil using this definition, definitely temperate climates are more limited to higher plateau areas or more to the south where snow is usually more common. Lages, for example has an annual average of 16.1 ° C, no longer receives regular snow but is closer to São Joaquim climatologically than Curitiba, with some snowfall in some years. At least in this case was functional, covering areas clearly temperate and not subtropical, I think the cities of Parana fit better in this system.
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