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Old 10-01-2019, 05:34 PM
 
Location: Part time dual resident of 76131 and 46060
2,976 posts, read 2,015,236 times
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First and foremost, I apologize if a thread like this has already been posted(if that’s the case please pardon the jargon)if a thread like this has been made already by all means feel free to merge it with an existing thread, but I guess what I would really like to know is how other fellow CD members of the weather forum feel about certain climate zone delineations, so I guess my question(s) are the following:


Why in the world would anyone in their right mind would ANY climatologist EVER have the guts to call a climate with a mean temperature in the coldest month of 27 F/ -3 C or warmer as being temperate(or dare I say subtropical), this REALLY boggles my mind that ANY climate expert would ever classify a climate with a mean temperature of = > 27 F/ -3 C as being anything CLOSE to being TEMPERATE! Heck, even the more widely accepted 0 C/ 32 F isotherm in delineations between the C and D climate zones is fairly ridiculous at least IMHO.

So FFS why 27 F/ 0 C? Is there some sort of threshold that makes a climate with a mean temperature in the coldest month at or warmer than 27 F/ -3 C Please help me understand why nut job climatologists(Köppen comes to mind) decided to make a climate above the said threshold as being Cfa rather than a Dfa or Dfb climate?

Another question I have for fellow CD members on the weather forum is

If YOU could make your own climate classification system(s), what your own personal climate zone map look like?

I personally don’t think that somewhere like Boston should technically be considered subtropical in climate, humid temperate with maritime influences maybe, but not subtropical in the strictest sense of the word.

And last but not least

What climate zone would YOU personally categorize the climate zone that you currently live in?

Please feel free to add insights and tidbits to this thread.

Go!
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Old 10-03-2019, 06:54 PM
tij
 
Location: Providence, RI
362 posts, read 80,344 times
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-3c has to do with snowpack, here in Providence, RI a snowpack really doesnt form despite winter averaging slightly under 0c in January. Most winter precip is rain here, the winters are more like Nashville or even Raleigh than like Wisconsin, Vermont or Québec.
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Old 10-03-2019, 07:45 PM
 
Location: Seattle WA, USA
4,119 posts, read 2,362,851 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tij View Post
-3c has to do with snowpack, here in Providence, RI a snowpack really doesnt form despite winter averaging slightly under 0c in January. Most winter precip is rain here, the winters are more like Nashville or even Raleigh than like Wisconsin, Vermont or Québec.
Yep and considering Köppen was born in St. Petersburg, he probably thought that a true continental climate must have a constant snow pack through out the winter. He also studied in Simferopol and his family had an estate on the Crimean coast which today is borderline continental/subtropical climate and considering how much warmer Simferopol is to St. Petersburg he probably wanted to put Simferopol squarely in the subtropics.

"He frequently traveled to his family's estate on the Crimean coast from St. Petersburg and to and from Simferopol, in the interior of the peninsula. The floral and geographical diversity of the Crimean peninsula, as well as the starker geographical transitions between the capital and his home, did much to awaken an interest in the relationship between climate and the natural world. In 1867, he transferred to the University of Heidelberg and in 1870 he defended his doctorate dissertation on the effects of temperature on plant growth at the University of Leipzig. He served in the Prussian ambulance corps in the Franco-Prussian War and later worked at the Central Physical Observatory in St. Petersburg."
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wladimir_Köppen

Now if Köppen was born in Paris or Rome, then perhaps he would've thought that any significant snowfall would equate to a continental climate, it's all relative really, depends on what your frame of reference is.
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Old Yesterday, 04:59 AM
tij
 
Location: Providence, RI
362 posts, read 80,344 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grega94 View Post
Yep and considering Köppen was born in St. Petersburg, he probably thought that a true continental climate must have a constant snow pack through out the winter. He also studied in Simferopol and his family had an estate on the Crimean coast which today is borderline continental/subtropical climate and considering how much warmer Simferopol is to St. Petersburg he probably wanted to put Simferopol squarely in the subtropics.

"He frequently traveled to his family's estate on the Crimean coast from St. Petersburg and to and from Simferopol, in the interior of the peninsula. The floral and geographical diversity of the Crimean peninsula, as well as the starker geographical transitions between the capital and his home, did much to awaken an interest in the relationship between climate and the natural world. In 1867, he transferred to the University of Heidelberg and in 1870 he defended his doctorate dissertation on the effects of temperature on plant growth at the University of Leipzig. He served in the Prussian ambulance corps in the Franco-Prussian War and later worked at the Central Physical Observatory in St. Petersburg."
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wladimir_Köppen

Now if Köppen was born in Paris or Rome, then perhaps he would've thought that any significant snowfall would equate to a continental climate, it's all relative really, depends on what your frame of reference is.
Yeah, Simferopol actually looks really similar to here, probably transitional, but not within the core of the continental zone like Moscow or St Pete. It's somewhere that can get snow throughout the winter, and where it can still get rather cold (as evinced by the record lows) but probably not somewhere where snow sticks on the ground continuously throughout the entire season or reliably at least in part for more than short periods of time. It of course is no Tampa, but that does not Places that are mostly bare in winter and have rain for the most part have a rather different feeling imo, as a contrast from living in Minnesota where snow was much more persistent. and (with spotty breaks), snow was persistent throughout the entire winter. Somewhere with a 3-4c mean obviously would hve somewhat less wintry weather than here overall [although perhaps not less cold, places like the upper south can still get very cold], but a -1 or -2c mean winter is more like 3-4c mean winter in terms of precip/snow pack than like a -8c or -9c winter deeper into the continental zone.
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Old Yesterday, 07:16 PM
 
Location: Putnam County, TN
227 posts, read 46,154 times
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I agree that places with 27F, or even 32F, as the coldest month's mean shouldn't be subtropical/mild temperate. I personally believe there should be a transitional category for those 27F-36F; those in that range still lack winter snowpack, but they can't support hardy palm seedlings (adults may be different, but that stops them from naturalizing) and still have transient winter snow.

Also, I find it ridiculous that places like Wellington and Eureka wouldn't be considered subtropical just because they have cool summers. Heck, even London, Portland and Seattle (which I see as almost subtropical) can grow slightly more plant species than even Nashville, D.C. and OKC (which I see as barely subtropical)!

My proposed climate classification system is here.
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Old Yesterday, 09:26 PM
 
Location: White House, TN
5,756 posts, read 4,046,961 times
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Personally, I would divide the continental climate at 0 C / 32 F, not -3 C, and further I would put in a category like "warm temperate" for climates with coldest month averages between about 0-8 C / 32-46 F, but if I had to choose between keeping that grouping subtropical or calling it continental, I'd air toward subtropical. "Humid subtropical" in my opinion brings to mind climates like much of the Gulf Coast, with winter means between 8 C / 46 F and the tropical cutoff.

I always thought the -3 C / 26.6 F delineation was laughable. Oslo, Norway, by the -3 C isotherm, is in the "C" climate grouping (it's "Cfb" because summers aren't warm enough, but the point is that a climate with the same winters could be called "Cfa" if summers were warm enough). Average highs in January and December are sub-freezing.

Most "Cfa" climates (really Dfa) with winter means of -2 to -3 C have average winter highs slightly above freezing. Indianapolis is a good example, and there is nothing "humid subtropical" about Indianapolis. It's full-on humid continental in my opinion, at most transitional.

In summation, climates with coldest month means below 0 C / 32 F are not subtropical, those with coldest month means of 0-8 C / 32-46 F are if the term is used loosely, and the true subtropical climates are those with coldest month means of 8-18 C / 46-64 F. If I had to name a "stereotypical climate" for humid subtropical, New Orleans.

I would call my own climate, with a coldest month mean of about 3 C / 38 F and warmest month mean of about 26 C / 79 F, "warm temperate", or if we must keep the current Koppen classifications, "cold-end humid subtropical"
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Old Yesterday, 09:37 PM
 
Location: Toronto
96 posts, read 17,521 times
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I too find it weird that under the -3C isotherm, Indianapolis and Cleveland would have the same classification as Bermuda, Orlando, and Taipei.

Reading the comments about the characteristics of winters for climates around the 0C mark, it makes some sense and I'd be OK with having another layer between the C class and D class.

C class has mild winters with little to no snow (coldest month > 3C)

In between class has chilly winters with snow but not accumulating (-3C < coldest month < 3C)

D class has cold winters with snowpack (coldest month < -3C)
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Old Yesterday, 10:50 PM
 
Location: Putnam County, TN
227 posts, read 46,154 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by segfault1361 View Post
I too find it weird that under the -3C isotherm, Indianapolis and Cleveland would have the same classification as Bermuda, Orlando, and Taipei.

Reading the comments about the characteristics of winters for climates around the 0C mark, it makes some sense and I'd be OK with having another layer between the C class and D class.

C class has mild winters with little to no snow (coldest month > 3C)

In between class has chilly winters with snow but not accumulating (-3C < coldest month < 3C)

D class has cold winters with snowpack (coldest month < -3C)
I agree strongly. The U.S. Mid-Atlantic's coast isn't as warm as even places like OKC, Nashville and Raleigh in the winter (lows are similar, but the highs are lower), but it's definitely not cold enough to deserve being "continental" either. It's all about smoothly transitioning between the mild-winter Sun Belt and harsh northern areas, which is one of the things Koppen failed to rectify; plus, Trewartha did little better (he actually made things WORSE in east Asia), and the Holdridge Life Zones really aren't great either.
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Old Today, 03:12 PM
 
Location: Hamilton, New Zeland
108 posts, read 81,378 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun Belt-lover L.A.M. View Post
I agree that places with 27F, or even 32F, as the coldest month's mean shouldn't be subtropical/mild temperate. I personally believe there should be a transitional category for those 27F-36F; those in that range still lack winter snowpack, but they can't support hardy palm seedlings (adults may be different, but that stops them from naturalizing) and still have transient winter snow.

Also, I find it ridiculous that places like Wellington and Eureka wouldn't be considered subtropical just because they have cool summers. Heck, even London, Portland and Seattle (which I see as almost subtropical) can grow slightly more plant species than even Nashville, D.C. and OKC (which I see as barely subtropical)!

My proposed climate classification system is here.
I really don't think a city like Wellington should be considered subtropical (maybe Auckland, but definitely not Wellington). Anything over 25 degrees is considered a heatwave, and it's not uncommon in the middle of summer to get highs of only 16 degrees and lows below 10...in the middle of summer...

Maybe there should be a hyper-oceanic classification or a warm/cool designation to distinguish say Auckland from Aberdeen. But I think without any extreme heat or cold Wellington is well suited to its oceanic classification.
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Old Today, 09:16 PM
 
Location: Top of the South, NZ
17,434 posts, read 14,119,553 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raysuxx View Post
I really don't think a city like Wellington should be considered subtropical (maybe Auckland, but definitely not Wellington). Anything over 25 degrees is considered a heatwave, and it's not uncommon in the middle of summer to get highs of only 16 degrees and lows below 10...in the middle of summer...

Maybe there should be a hyper-oceanic classification or a warm/cool designation to distinguish say Auckland from Aberdeen. But I think without any extreme heat or cold Wellington is well suited to its oceanic classification.
Auckland averages 18.9C over summer, with Wellington at 17.4C, and Aberdeen at 13.2C - deciding that Auckland is subtropical; won't change the fact that Wellington summers are much closer to Auckland than Aberdeen.
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