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I'm in the bad habit of using 'temperate' as a synonym for "temperate oceanic". Sorry for the confusion this has caused.
Let's all start using 'oceanic' or 'maritime' instead of 'temperate' (which should refer to midlattitudinal climates in general).
The distinction between oceanic and continental really has to do with the annual range of mean temperatures.
When I hear temperate,
I automatically think of "4-balanced, distinct seasons" which is less characteristic of oceanic climates,
though usually exclude climates characterized by rapid swings in temps. (continental)
People Down Under definitely have a different perspective on what's considered temperate.
Likely what North Americans consider "temperate" is "continental" for you.
Adelaide for example is peculiar to me,
with a maritime winter temp pattern and a continental summer pattern. (summer highs of 19 C or 42 C are not uncommon)
Oceanic/maritime climates to me seem more like island climates than anything else,
like if no time of year can see a 20 C drop in temps in a single day.
Continental for me can be somewhere with drastic changes within a given month, even if their averages are similar to a "temperate" climate.
Which part of NYC averages 30F? (I'm really curious)
Average Weather for New York, NY - Temperature and Precipitation
I dont know what part but this is actually colder than 30, maybe bronx? More interior climate so colder winters.
Well still, i like to go out in the night so 38/26 is just too cold for me, and that s not even counting the one i found on weather.com which is 36/23. So that is why i just average it together, more simple.
I'd say you need to introduce a requirement for annual mean temperature (say, 17 C) in addition to the mean temp requirements for the hottest and coldest months. This eliminates most of those borderline cases like NYC, Washington, D.C., etc.
At least 16c or 60f?
Im still working on the other parts for my definition,but you know i also think its more like a lifestyle too...
I would say NYC and Washington, D.C. would be more accurately described as "warm continental" -- they have cold, snowy winters through which most subtropical plants would be hard-pressed to survive. I acknowledge that both are significantly warmer than 'true' continental climates like Toronto or Minneapolis, but a mean minimum of -4 C in the coldest month is just stretching the definition of 'subtropical' too far in my view.
I think an annual mean of 17 C works well as the sole criterion for subtropical climates. I would define 'subtropical' as the climate zone in which subtropical plants can grow. I would further define "subtropical plants" as those plants that tend to be found between 20 and 35 degrees of the equator (citrus, palms, etc.). Hence, subtropical climates are those typically found in the latitudinal range of 20 - 35 degrees (kind of a circular definition, I know).
The defining attributes of such climates are substantial heat on an annual basis, at the upper-end of what one would expect in the temperate zone (an annual mean of at least 16 - 18 C seems appropriate), and the absense of lengthy cold (sub-freezing) periods in winter. The former requirement differentiates such climates from temperate maritime climates (Seattle, Christchurch, etc.), while the latter differentiates from borderline continental climates (NYC, Seoul, etc.).
This definition clearly excludes the likes of NYC, Baltimore, etc. and includes Atlanta and Memphis as borderline cases. Obviously my definition is a lot stricter than those of Koppen, Trewartha, et. al., but I think those schemes are overly broad. Frankly, I think I'm being too generous, if anything -- a climate isn't really subtropical unless it has a coldest month mean over 10 C.
It all comes back to vegetation -- can the region support subtropical flora? I know NYC has a few species of palm trees growing there, but then again so do Christchurch and Vancouver.
I totally agree…locations like NYC, Seattle, or Christchurch for example… should not be included in subtropical climate classifications (as I mentioned, places like Atlanta and cities in Tennessee are in/near highlands, so their temp profile is a good bit different than typical subtropical locations in the Gulf/South Atlantic portion of the USA).
However, just another point when considering “Temperate” in terms of Temperate Oceanic climates (Do)…and Temperate continental climates (Dc). The problem is that “lowland” temperate continental climates (like NYC or Seoul) appear to be much colder than they really are because of about 10 weeks of weather. The result is that lowland Temperate Continental climates are perceived as cold…when in reality they are warm much of the year (and even subtropical a portion of the year).
The poster child in the USA for that example is Seattle, WA and NYC:
The mean temp in January is 4 C (40 F) in Seattle… and 0 C (32 F) in NYC. In the three winter months – Seattle averages about 30 days with lows of 0 C or lower…and NYC averages about 70 such days. So NYC has a little more than twice as many freezing nights as Seattle. However, the more mild temperatures of Seattle compared to NYC is fleeting beyond the 90 days of winter: NYC reports 265 days a year when the daily high is 10 C or higher…Seattle reports 281 such days (just 16 days more). NYC reports 20 days a year when the daily high cracks 32 C (90 F)…Seattle reports only 2 or 3. Eight out of 12 months the mean temp is higher in NYC than in Seattle…and NYC has a higher mean annual temperature than Seattle (55 F vs 52 F).
However, do to the fact that those 90 days or so of winter are a bit colder (and have lower minimums) …true trunking palms are able to survive in a place like Seattle (and maybe other Temperate Oceanic climates)…and not NYC. I know there are some palms around the coastal areas of New Jersey, Long Island, coastal Connecticut…but in the main it remains to be seen if true “trunked palms" will ever make it this far up the East Coast ( the Windmill Palms may be the only type of palm that will ever survive long enough to form a true trunk I’ve read). I’m no plant expert…but I would guess few species would be able to survive long term in the NYC because of those handful of very cold nights in the 10 weeks of winter. However, Seattle and even coastal parts of Salt Spring Island (BC) have many examples of trunked palms.
To be subtropical under the Koeppen system a location must:
> Have a mean temperature between -3C (26.6F) and 18C (64.4F) for its coldest month
> Have at least one month over 22C (71.6F)
> Year-round rainfall distribution OR a much drier winter than summer
Sochi, Russia fulfills these requirements.
In the U.S., the northernmost location I can find that surely fulfills these "requirements" is Providence, RI (41:44N).
Inland (at least) the temperature requirements are fulfilled as far north as Kansas City, MO, Elsberry, MO (north of St. Louis); Charleston, IL; Indianapolis, IN (right on the edge); Dayton, OH; Columbus, OH; Erie, PA; Pittsburgh, PA. (Yes, Erie is "humid subtropical" - coldest month is 26.9, warmest 72.1).
I hate that stupid Koppen classification. To me, subtropical is more like Myrtle Beach or Charleston, someplace with palm trees and mild winter, but still a mild but true winter, not a place that has blizzards and such. How in the hell Cincinnati, St. Louis, Louisville, Philadelphia, and Kansas City are either at the edge or actually within subtropical climate is beyond me. Conversely, I also find it funny when someone (like on t.v. or on internet or whatever) says that, say, Aruba or Acapulco or Port-au-Prince or whatever has a "subtropical" climate.
I totally agree…locations like NYC, Seattle, or Christchurch for example… should not be included in subtropical climate classifications (as I mentioned, places like Atlanta and cities in Tennessee are in/near highlands, so their temp profile is a good bit different than typical subtropical locations in the Gulf/South Atlantic portion of the USA).
However, just another point when considering “Temperate” in terms of Temperate Oceanic climates (Do)…and Temperate continental climates (Dc). The problem is that “lowland” temperate continental climates (like NYC or Seoul) appear to be much colder than they really are because of about 10 weeks of weather. The result is that lowland Temperate Continental climates are perceived as cold…when in reality they are warm much of the year (and even subtropical a portion of the year).
The poster child in the USA for that example is Seattle, WA and NYC:
The mean temp in January is 4 C (40 F) in Seattle… and 0 C (32 F) in NYC. In the three winter months – Seattle averages about 30 days with lows of 0 C or lower…and NYC averages about 70 such days. So NYC has a little more than twice as many freezing nights as Seattle. However, the more mild temperatures of Seattle compared to NYC is fleeting beyond the 90 days of winter: NYC reports 265 days a year when the daily high is 10 C or higher…Seattle reports 281 such days (just 16 days more). NYC reports 20 days a year when the daily high cracks 32 C (90 F)…Seattle reports only 2 or 3. Eight out of 12 months the mean temp is higher in NYC than in Seattle…and NYC has a higher mean annual temperature than Seattle (55 F vs 52 F).
However, do to the fact that those 90 days or so of winter are a bit colder (and have lower minimums) …true trunking palms are able to survive in a place like Seattle (and maybe other Temperate Oceanic climates)…and not NYC. I know there are some palms around the coastal areas of New Jersey, Long Island, coastal Connecticut…but in the main it remains to be seen if true “trunked palms" will ever make it this far up the East Coast ( the Windmill Palms may be the only type of palm that will ever survive long enough to form a true trunk I’ve read). I’m no plant expert…but I would guess few species would be able to survive long term in the NYC because of those handful of very cold nights in the 10 weeks of winter. However, Seattle and even coastal parts of Salt Spring Island (BC) have many examples of trunked palms.
…yet NYC is the warmer climate.
As Glen Campbell said: "Southern nights, have you ever felt a southern night?" Or Allman Brothers "Bluebird", makes me think of nice, warm southern spring day.
The whole palm tree and subtropical climate going hand and hand is pointless...Sabal Minor(Saw Palmetto) are native to southern Oklahoma(not the picture of subtropical) and Arkansas. Rhapidophyllum hystrix(Needle Palm) and Sabal palmetto(Palmetto) are both native all the way up to the Carolinas.
Outside of the U.S., Rhopalostylis sapida(Nikau Palm) occurs as far south as the Chatham Islands, 44 degrees south. Chamaerops humilis(Mediterranean Fan Palm) is native to France.
Trachycarpus fortueni(Windmill Palm) are being cultivated as far north as the Faroe Islands(62 degrees north).
The whole palm tree and subtropical climate going hand and hand is pointless...Sabal Minor(Saw Palmetto) are native to southern Oklahoma(not the picture of subtropical) and Arkansas. Rhapidophyllum hystrix(Needle Palm) and Sabal palmetto(Palmetto) are both native all the way up to the Carolinas.
Outside of the U.S., Rhopalostylis sapida(Nikau Palm) occurs as far south as the Chatham Islands, 44 degrees south. Chamaerops humilis(Mediterranean Fan Palm) is native to France.
Trachycarpus fortueni(Windmill Palm) are being cultivated as far north as the Faroe Islands(62 degrees north).
NOT ALL PALMS ARE TROPICAL OR SUB-TROPICAL!
I definitely agree with this. Those species of palms you mentioned are native to temperate areas and in some cases wouldn't do well in a subtropical climate (I heard windmill palms don't do that well in Florida).
It's a cruel irony in my opinion standing outside on a cold damp rainy January day here in Vancouver next to a row of palm trees freezing your buns off.
True, but cold-hardy palms are the exception rather than the rule.
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