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Old 02-02-2012, 04:26 PM
 
Location: Mid Atlantic USA
5,895 posts, read 2,955,670 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe90 View Post
Cool temperate for London and Vancouver. Here (Motueka) is just within subtropical under the Trewartha definition, so that would seem like a relevant divide for a winter qualifying mark. London and Vancouver are very close to here in summer temps, but Motueka's colder half of the year has more in common with Rome or Nice. The colder season is a different experience to London/Vancouver imho, although that has as much to do with the weather as the temps.

I would consider Invercargill and Dunedin as cool temperate also. A informal system used here in Horticulture has NZ divided into warm, cool, and cold temperate. Here is cool because it is a "middle climate"

The Oregon coast seems to have 9 months over 50F, only from about North Bend south. Brookings is a place I pay attention to via gardening sites. It seems to be the cutoff point for a lot of marginal plant species. Brookings, Oregon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Re Brookings: The summers there are awful from those stats. I would need more warmth regardless of what can grow due to those min temps being mild.

Doubt you could grow a decent garden of beefsteak tomatoes, watermelon or sweet corn.

 
Old 02-02-2012, 05:32 PM
 
Location: Top of the South (Nelson), NZ
7,152 posts, read 3,505,096 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom77falcons View Post
Re Brookings: The summers there are awful from those stats. I would need more warmth regardless of what can grow due to those min temps being mild.

Doubt you could grow a decent garden of beefsteak tomatoes, watermelon or sweet corn.
Probably not. I couldn't grow any of those plants (not for lack of trying )during my 6 years in Invercargill, where summer is about 1.5C/3F cooler than Brookings.

Up here has been the worst season for summer crops in years. I lost a paddock of melons in the heavy rain of early summer. I only managed christmas tomatoes/cucumbers this summer due to my tunnelhouses. Everything is in full swing now though. I'm selling corn for 40 cents a cob.
 
Old 02-02-2012, 05:36 PM
 
253 posts, read 265,202 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deneb78 View Post
I like the Trewartha definition of subtropical better.. which means places north of the Carolinas don't really qualify as subtropical on the East coast.
I agree, Trewartha is definitely an improvement over Koppen
with regards to definition of "humid subtropical" climate.

No offense to New Yorkers....and you do have nice warm humid summers
but IMO you ain't subtropical....coastal areas in northern Scotland have
average temperatures in winter that are warmer than NYC, even Bergen, Norway!! (over 1000 miles farther north )

I would ammend Trewartha slightly.... to be subtropical a place must have a coldest month mean temperature above 5c (41f).

In north america that would mean as far north as southeastern Virginia
...most of North Carolina (except higher elevations) ...southern Tennessee west to southeast Oklahoma.

Most "southern cities" average just above this threshold in January.

Virginia Beach,VA 41f
Raleigh,NC 41f
Charlotte,NC 42f
Atlanta,GA 44f
Memphis,TN 41f
Dallas,TX 46f

This to me would make the zone more sensible
as I have tough time with New York City being in the same climatic zone as Tampa, Florida. I mean people from NYC vacation in Tampa in the winter to escape the cold!!

As for where is the farthest north subtropical place? ...hmmm
not sure, maybe Sochi Russia at 43 degrees north???

Last edited by philobeddoe; 02-02-2012 at 06:13 PM..
 
Old 02-02-2012, 05:37 PM
 
Location: USA East Coast
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deneb78 View Post
I like the Trewartha definition of subtropical better.. which means places north of the Carolinas don't really qualify as subtropical on the East coast.
I do as well.

The term “subtropical” is thrown around way too much. Subtropical climates are locations where warm to hot conditions dominate the bulk of the year (8 or more months)…snowfall is little or none…frosts are spotty…and stable high pressure is the dominate genetic climate variable.

Based on the above, the East Coast above central North Carolina…the PNW…North Island New Zealand, the area around Melbourne/Hobart, Australia…northern China/Japan/Korea…and much of Europe - are anything but subtropical.

NYC might have highs in the middle 90's F (33- 35 C) in summer, they might grow palms in parts on the PNW or Melbourne, Paris might have only 30 days with frost/freeze...etc...but they are all far from subtropical. Trewartha did an excellent job (for the most part) in grouping true subtropical climates into a separate zone from temperate climates.
 
Old 02-02-2012, 07:23 PM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,691 posts, read 19,219,566 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patricius Maximus View Post
And New York City is pretty warm in Winter. Comments like this highlight the pure silliness of this emotion-based climate zoning.
NYC warm in winter? To who, Minnesotans? I wouldn't call freezing 'warm', unless you're using a very subjective measure. NYC winter isn't even in the same ball-park as an Orlando winter.

The only real difference between Prince Rupert is more rainfall, cloud and being a few degrees lower throughout the year. Bilbao is generally a cool, wet, rainy place like Brittany in France, Southwest England or Ireland.
 
Old 02-02-2012, 07:25 PM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,691 posts, read 19,219,566 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wavehunter007 View Post
I do as well.

The term “subtropical” is thrown around way too much. Subtropical climates are locations where warm to hot conditions dominate the bulk of the year (8 or more months)…snowfall is little or none…frosts are spotty…and stable high pressure is the dominate genetic climate variable.

Based on the above, the East Coast above central North Carolina…the PNW…North Island New Zealand, the area around Melbourne/Hobart, Australia…northern China/Japan/Korea…and much of Europe - are anything but subtropical.

NYC might have highs in the middle 90's F (33- 35 C) in summer, they might grow palms in parts on the PNW or Melbourne, Paris might have only 30 days with frost/freeze...etc...but they are all far from subtropical. Trewartha did an excellent job (for the most part) in grouping true subtropical climates into a separate zone from temperate climates.
Definitely agree, Trewartha's definition is more realistic and meaningful. Koeppen's classification basically covers two climates, sub-tropical and warm temperate.
 
Old 02-02-2012, 09:57 PM
 
Location: Mid Atlantic USA
5,895 posts, read 2,955,670 times
Reputation: 3119
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimac20 View Post
NYC warm in winter? To who, Minnesotans? I wouldn't call freezing 'warm', unless you're using a very subjective measure. NYC winter isn't even in the same ball-park as an Orlando winter.

The only real difference between Prince Rupert is more rainfall, cloud and being a few degrees lower throughout the year. Bilbao is generally a cool, wet, rainy place like Brittany in France, Southwest England or Ireland.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimac20 View Post
Definitely agree, Trewartha's definition is more realistic and meaningful. Koeppen's classification basically covers two climates, sub-tropical and warm temperate.
I agree. I've never heard anyone where I live here or in NYC refer to their climate as subtropical. Maybe climatologists mention it (and wiki ), but no one on the street.
 
Old 02-02-2012, 10:17 PM
 
Location: Western Massachusetts
28,086 posts, read 14,355,464 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philobeddoe View Post

I would ammend Trewartha slightly.... to be subtropical a place must have a coldest month mean temperature above 5c (41f).
I like that change, too; this should keep subtropical to places without intense winter cold, enough so greenery in the winter is a possiblity.
 
Old 02-02-2012, 10:38 PM
 
Location: Leeds, UK
14,878 posts, read 8,705,382 times
Reputation: 5733
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimac20 View Post
NYC warm in winter? To who, Minnesotans? I wouldn't call freezing 'warm', unless you're using a very subjective measure. NYC winter isn't even in the same ball-park as an Orlando winter.

The only real difference between Prince Rupert is more rainfall, cloud and being a few degrees lower throughout the year. Bilbao is generally a cool, wet, rainy place like Brittany in France, Southwest England or Ireland.
But Prince Rupert is almost a subpolar oceanic type, while Bilbao is much closer to Mediterranean.. they are nothing alike except in terms of sunshine.. not denying that Bilbao is obviously oceanic, because I do not dispute climatic zones, but they don't have to be exactly the same.. NYC and Philly are subtropical under Koppen and that will not change..
 
Old 02-02-2012, 10:54 PM
 
Location: New York City
2,789 posts, read 2,870,530 times
Reputation: 1650
Since we are beating the same dead horse again, I'll chime in. I see the whole issue with the word "subtropical" as a semantics/language problem. Some words have scientific definitions that differ from how they are understood and used colloquially. For example the word "theory" means one thing to scientists and something completely different to regular people. To a scientists, a theory is something that has been tested and for all intents and purposes proven to be true while to a lay person it could be just a conjecture ("Oh it's just a theory"). The word "planet" is anther example.

Specifically with subtropical, for most people the word invokes images of palm trees, practically non-existent winters and almost endless summers. However there is no reason to confuse our colloquial usage of the term with Koppen's definition. I believe Koppen merely wanted to identify a climate category that had hot, humid summers and winters not cold enough to have a lasting snow cover (which was reserved for temperate climates). In retrospect, the term "subtropical" is probably unfortunate since it leads to this definition/language problem.
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