Most Northern Subtropical climate in the world? (compare, ground, month)

[wavehunter007]

Originally Posted by Patricius Maximus

Just to be clear, I refer to "harsh" the way most people in most parts of North America would - with connotations of biting cold winds (well below freezing) and significant snowfall. That's a harsh winter as the phrase is currently used in my region. Most in the U.S. would consider places like Chicago and Minneapolis to have harsh Winters. I don't agree with that assessment myself and I'd say a genuine harsh winter is more like Winnipeg or Fairbanks. However, even using the common sense of the word as I have in my post your referenced, New York is definitely quite a step up in terms of mildness than Chicago and is not "harsh".

A lot of the dispute contained in this thread does come from language confusion and conflation, which I seek to minimize on every practical basis.

No doubt...there is something to be said for relativity when it comes to climate.

[Infamous92]

Tampa & Orlando keep being brought up as typical Subtropical climates when they're nearly Tropical, that's just as bad as bringing up NYC & Philly as typical Subtropical climates, none of these 4 are typical "subtropical" climates. I guess Winnepeg doesn't have a Continental climate because Chicago (one of the warmest Continental cities) is the archetype for this climatic classification, it's the same logic.

I don't see why NYC, Philly, DC, etc. fitting the criteria of the Cfa climate zone ruffles so many feathers. Almost every climate zone is broad. Sub(tropical) =/= Tropical.

[nei]

Originally Posted by Infamous92

I don't see why NYC, Philly, DC, etc. fitting the criteria for the Cfa climate zone ruffles so many feathers. The climate zones are just very broad. Sub(tropical) =/= Tropical.

Well my complaint is that the subtropical zone is too broad. I believe it should be divided into true subtropical and warm continental temperate. With somewhere in North Carolina as the dividing line on the east coast.

[MrMarbles]

Originally Posted by nei

Well my complaint is that the subtropical zone is too broad. I believe it should be divided into true subtropical and warm continental temperate. With somewhere in North Carolina as the dividing line on the east coast.

The problem is there is a lot of area to cover. And the temperate zone is already subdivided into Dfa and Dfb categories.

I'm OK with cities like NYC, Philly, W-DC being classified in a different category than Tampa or Orlando. But at the same time, they are also quite different from, say, Quebec City, Edmonton or Winnipeg (which are temperate but not really subarctic). The temperate zone is already quite wide.

[nei]

Originally Posted by MrMarbles

The problem is there is a lot of area to cover. And the temperate zone is already subdivided into Dfa and Dfb categories.

I'm OK with cities like NYC, Philly, W-DC being classified in a different category than Tampa or Orlando. But at the same time, they are also quite different from, say, Quebec City, Edmonton or Winnipeg (which are temperate but not really subarctic). The temperate zone is already quite wide.

Well Quebec City, Edmonton or Winnipeg are in the Dfb group. NYC, Philly, W-DC could be grouped with the Dfa climates or we could create a new temperate zone group.

[MrMarbles]

Originally Posted by nei

Well Quebec City, Edmonton or Winnipeg are in the Dfb group. NYC, Philly, W-DC could be grouped with the Dfa climates or we could create a new temperate zone group.

We could. But I guess my point is that I see NYC's climate more resembling climate in parts of the South than almost any place in Canada. Not Tampa or Orlando, of course. But Nashville, Atlanta or Charlotte are really not THAT different from the Mid-Atlantic.

[philobeddoe]

Here's an interesting comparison...

CHICAGO.......NEW YORK........RALEIGH,NC
......HI LO...........HI LO.............HI LO
JAN 32 19.....JAN 39 27.......JAN 52 32
FEB 37 22.....FEB 42 29.......FEB 56 34
MAR 48 31....MAR 51 35......MAR 64 41
APR 60 41.....APR 62 45.......APR 73 48
MAY 71 51....MAY 72 54......MAY 80 57
JUN 81 61......JUN 80 64.......JUN 86 65
JUL 85 67.......JUL 85 69.......JUL 89 69
AUG 83 66.....AUG 83 68......AUG 87 68
SEP 76 58......SEP 76 61......SEP 82 62
OCT 63 46.....OCT 65 50.....OCT 73 50
NOV 49 35.....NOV 55 42.....NOV 63 42
DEC 36 23......DEC 44 32.....DEC 54 35

These are 1981-2010 Normals, Chicago are from Midway Airport
New York City are from Central Park

Is NYC closer to Chicago's climate or Raleigh, North Carolina ?

People tend to think the midwest as cold but Chicago holds it's own against NYC.

Notice the that average "highs" from April to Oct. NYC and Chicago are
almost the same!

Raleigh is noticeably warmer in the cooler half of the year,
but NYC does have remarkably warm "lows" in the fall.

NYC IS kind of "mild" (nice seasonal lag) but should it be in the same climate zone as southern USA?

Hmm...alittle more global warming and maybe NYC WILL be subtropical

[Patricius Maximus]

Originally Posted by wavehunter007

No doubt...there is something to be said for relativity when it comes to climate.

Yes, there is, although there are some objective bounds when it comes to the extremes found on Earth; no doubt that relative to humans and our planet 136 F is hot and -129 F is cold. The only hard-and-fast boundaries are temperatures that would instantly kill any human without an airtight garment (i.e. a spacesuit), which don't currently exist anywhere on the Earth's surface.

Originally Posted by Infamous92

Tampa & Orlando keep being brought up as typical Subtropical climates when they're nearly Tropical, that's just as bad as bringing up NYC & Philly as typical Subtropical climates, none of these 4 are typical "subtropical" climates. I guess Winnepeg doesn't have a Continental climate because Chicago (one of the warmest Continental cities) is the archetype for this climatic classification, it's the same logic.

I don't see why NYC, Philly, DC, etc. fitting the criteria of the Cfa climate zone ruffles so many feathers. Almost every climate zone is broad. Sub(tropical) =/= Tropical.

This is very true, I agree with it 100 percent, and these words should be heeded. Of course climate zones are broad; by necessity, we're grouping different climates here. To not have any differences within zones we'd have to have one zone for every climate, which doesn't make any sense. The whole purpose of climate zones is to group climates that have essentially the same characteristics based on some kind of standard; Koeppen's system is based on native vegetation, which most agree is the best standard to use as it relates to science. If you look at it, the entire Cfa zone, from the -3C isotherm all the way up to the 18C isotherm have essentially the same characteristics, which I outlined earlier. There is a distinct difference between, say, the Mid-Atlantic and the Koeppen Dfa/Dfb zones that are colder than the persistent snowline; their winters are essentially different, and have much more in common with Nashville than Chicago, as well as a different type of vegetation. With the Cfa zone, it's not a difference of kind, but of degree. To group warm places that can't even maintain a snowpack and have different vegetation in the same zone as continental climates is very stupid and degrades the whole meaning of continental climates.

Originally Posted by MrMarbles

We could. But I guess my point is that I see NYC's climate more resembling climate in parts of the South than almost any place in Canada. Not Tampa or Orlando, of course. But Nashville, Atlanta or Charlotte are really not THAT different from the Mid-Atlantic.

This is also true, and is the basis (along with native vegetation) of using the persistent snow line as the boundary. Hot and cold ends of any zone will be different from each other and there is grading towards the types they approach but not quite achieve. For instance Jackson, Mississippi is the epitome of the humid subtropical class, lying in the middle of its zone in every respect. Winnipeg, Manitoba is the epitome of the Dfb zone. But that does not exclude others who deviate from this. Those on the hot or cold end of any zone will grade towards the zone they're approaching, but not quite make it, and still be essentially the same as the archetypes. Such is the case with both New York and Tampa when it comes to the subtropics.

[jbird82]

My opinion is southeastern VA, ie Virginia Beach, is the upper boundary of what I'd consider subtropical in the eastern United States.

Virginia Beach, Virginia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It has a climate that resembles aspects of the southern cities like Orlando but also resembles it's northern neighbors like DC.

DC, Philly and NYC have a very different feel than places like Wilmington, Myrtle Beach, and Charleston when it comes to climate outside of the summer months.

[Stumbler.]

Koppen's climate classification is based on vegetation, what exactly are the categories in which the climate divides the vegetation? Something like deciduous trees, conifers etc. For example, the Dfa and Cfa line doesn't really seem to match up with a particularly strong change in vegetation.

Is NYC's "native" vegetation that much different from Chicago's?

If you mapped out the Koppen climate classification over that of many kinds of trees and plants, would you see a large change-over in the species present at the boundaries?