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How warm would Eureka have be in summer to be regarded as subtropical?
I'm OK with Koppen's definition of 22C average temp of the warmest month, or something close to it. I know that you prefer to think in terms of flora than raw temperatures. Perhaps you can think of it as a criterion where warm-loving plants such as tomatoes, melons, eggplants etc (I don't know much about plants but I think these will do) could be grown without greenhouses and other special care.
On a similar note, I've noticed that we frequently talk about plants in the context of them being able to survive winters, and their general cold-hardiness. We rarely talk about warm-loving plants, and especially certain warm loving cereal grains and commercial crops (which are more important, economically at least, than ornamental and decorative plants such as palm trees). I'm talking about plants such as rice, corn, cotton, tobacco.
I think because he uses 18 for tropical it should be the same for subtropical if the winters are milder than 6ºc but if winters average below 6ºc they have to have an average above 22ºc.
I'm OK with Koppen's definition of 22C average temp of the warmest month, or something close to it. I know that you prefer to think in terms of flora than raw temperatures. Perhaps you can think of it as a criterion where warm-loving plants such as tomatoes, melons, eggplants etc (I don't know much about plants but I think these will do) could be grown without greenhouses and other special care.
On a similar note, I've noticed that we frequently talk about plants in the context of them being able to survive winters, and their general cold-hardiness. We rarely talk about warm-loving plants, and especially certain warm loving cereal grains and commercial crops (which are more important, economically at least, than ornamental and decorative plants such as palm trees). I'm talking about plants such as rice, corn, cotton, tobacco.
Temperatures don't need to be that high for tomatoes, melons, eggplants etc. Summer averages 17-18C/62-64F here, and those plants grow in the garden without special care. Crops wouldn't be as heavy as in your neck of the woods, but still well worth growing. Furthermore, they self propagate freely in late spring/early summer, from the previous year's dropped fruit, and could be considered naturalized.
Corn and tobacco are/were big crops here for a long time, and temperatures do not need to be that warm for those. Rice can be grown in NZ, but isn't grown commercially, probably as the climate is less than optimal. Cotton is one of I've never heard of growing here. Wheat has no problem growing in the summers here.
Winter mildness isn't just about ornamental plants. This country earns billions from it's ability to grow a large range of subtropical fruits and even more importantly, grass during the colder months. Something not seen in plenty of so called Subtropical climates, or colder Oceanic climates such as the UK, NW Europe, or the PNW
Subtropical climates (imo), should be able to grow a wide range of crops throughout the year, rather than just relying on a hot season.
Joe90 I've seen your winter temperatures and to be honest the overnight lows are just as cold in winter as places like London, if not colder. London shuold be able to grow anything that will grow where you live just fine.
Grass certainly has no problem growing all year round in the UK. Not cold enough for it to die.
Ibulieve that a subtropical climate has to meet a certain summer temperature requirement, like the 22 degree mean temperature that somebody mentioned. NZ is the same climate type as the UK, and can grow about the same level as plants for the most part.
Joe90 I've seen your winter temperatures and to be honest the overnight lows are just as cold in winter as places like London, if not colder. London shuold be able to grow anything that will grow where you live just fine.
Grass certainly has no problem growing all year round in the UK. Not cold enough for it to die.
Ibulieve that a subtropical climate has to meet a certain summer temperature requirement, like the 22 degree mean temperature that somebody mentioned. NZ is the same climate type as the UK, and can grow about the same level as plants for the most part.
Daytime temperatures are warmer though and the frost there would not last as long as it does in the UK. I was told that the record low maximum in Christchurch is something like 0.4c which isn't even below freezing.
London is really a totally different climate to the rest of the UK to be honest.
Joe90 I've seen your winter temperatures and to be honest the overnight lows are just as cold in winter as places like London, if not colder. London shuold be able to grow anything that will grow where you live just fine.
Grass certainly has no problem growing all year round in the UK. Not cold enough for it to die.
Ibulieve that a subtropical climate has to meet a certain summer temperature requirement, like the 22 degree mean temperature that somebody mentioned. NZ is the same climate type as the UK, and can grow about the same level as plants for the most part.
It's true that here is as frosty, or even more so, than southern England, but as owenc mentioned, day temps are warmer. Looking at this Septembers climate summaries, I see that Motueka had a warmer average max temp (by 2C), than Buxton or Leeds, and that is comparing the first month of spring to the first month of Autumn. The effect of those warmer maximums is very big.
NZ and the UK are both oceanic climates, but are still quite different climates. The main differences in regard to growing plants, are that the UK has a shorter summer and cooler spring/autumn, and less rain/sunshine. The season with most similarity is summer, but much of NZ is still as warm or warmer than the warmest parts of the UK.
I haven't seen anything to suggest grass growth in the UK is the same as most of NZ. I'm not talking about grass not dying, but actively growing during the colder months. Places here that didn't get grazed during June-Aug, had grass at about 12- 15 inches tall by the end of August. I suspect that wouldn't be typical of the UK in February. NZ can grow anything the UK can, but the UK is far more limited in what it can grow. Trewartha did a good job in identifying the particular minimum requirements, to enable a high(er) level of winter growth/insect activity. The UK doesn't qualify, which is why vegetation/plants are at a different level here.
The main point of my argument, is not so much that here is subtropical (which it is under Trewartha anyway), but that somewhere like NYC isn't. A hot summer doesn't make a climate subtropical (imho). It has to have a winter to enable flora/fauna to extend their limits, or life cycles
It. Looking at this Septembers climate summaries, I see that Motueka had a warmer average max temp (by 2C), than Buxton or Leeds, and that is comparing the first month of spring to the first month of Autumn. The effect of those warmer maximums is very big.
September was colder than average and Buxton and Leeds aren't good representatives of the UK climate really one being over 1000ft high and the other fairly high and in the north. Still I know that England has colder winter high temperatures which is what limits growth relative to the UK. But I was more referring to Sourthern England in particular which can grow a lot more than most parts of England but is still colder in winter than most places in NZ.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe90
NZ and the UK are both oceanic climates, but are still quite different climates. The main differences in regard to growing plants, are that the UK has a shorter summer and cooler spring/autumn, and less rain/sunshine. The season with most similarity is summer, but much of NZ is still as warm or warmer than the warmest parts of the UK.
Most of England has warmer summers than the NZ south island but less sun.
When factoring in the winters NZ is warmer on average and I think it's the winters alone that allow any extra growth, because in summer, well even Auckland has anemic looking summers compared to London/SE and Invercargill has colder summers than Buxton, even though Buxton's over 1000ft high. Back down to sea level places in the east mids on the same (53rd) parallel have summer avgs comparable to Nelson.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe90
I haven't seen anything to suggest grass growth in the UK is the same as most of NZ. I'm not talking about grass not dying, but actively growing during the colder months. Places here that didn't get grazed during June-Aug, had grass at about 12- 15 inches tall by the end of August. I suspect that wouldn't be typical of the UK in February. NZ can grow anything the UK can, but the UK is far more limited in what it can grow. Trewartha did a good job in identifying the particular minimum requirements, to enable a high(er) level of winter growth/insect activity. The UK doesn't qualify, which is why vegetation/plants are at a different level here.
Trewartha's subtropical definition doesn't make sense to me as such a definition is not something to be soley based on plant growth. Based on its temps most of NZ shouldn't qualify, winters are too cold in most of the south island and so are summers (in my opinion). Most of England winter's are too cold to grow as much as your part of NZ can but in London and the SE one can grow the same range of things, but for most of the UK inland, you can't. Lower grass growth in SE England is down to less rain than down to colder temperatures.
The south of the UK has more impressive abilities for the fact it is over 50 degrees away from the equator, London and some SE coast places can grow bananas and coconut palms, imagine that on the similar latitude Falkland Islands or even in Invercargill LOL.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe90
The main point of my argument, is not so much that here is subtropical (which it is under Trewartha anyway), but that somewhere like NYC isn't. A hot summer doesn't make a climate subtropical (imho). It has to have a winter to enable flora/fauna to extend their limits, or life cycles
A subtropical climate should have a minimum standard of warmth in summer though (maybe not "Hot") but certainly a lot warmer than NZ. The point I was making is, that if where you live was subtropical parts of the south coast of England and London would be (though not most of it) and clearly that's nonsense so I in the end disagree with both Koppen and Trewartha's definitions of subtropical then. Neither New York or NZ is subtropical. With its mild winters and cool summers NZ is firmly where is belongs... temperate, like the UK.
When you think "sub"tropical is only one step down from "tropical" it makes sense to believe there should be a summer season of reasonable heat and torridity at the least and NZ has no such thing.
In my mind as subtropical place should have no winter average less than about 7°C and no summer average less than 22 or even 24°C but I guess I will never get my definition recognised..uh.
By my definition of subtropical the following made up climate averages show one place that would and one place that would not qualify.
September was colder than average and Buxton and Leeds aren't good representatives of the UK climate really one being over 1000ft high and the other fairly high and in the north. Still I know that England has colder winter high temperatures which is what limits growth relative to the UK. But I was more referring to Sourthern England in particular which can grow a lot more than most parts of England but is still colder in winter than most places in NZ.
Most of England has warmer summers than the NZ south island but less sun.
When factoring in the winters NZ is warmer on average and I think it's the winters alone that allow any extra growth, because in summer, well even Auckland has anemic looking summers compared to London/SE and Invercargill has colder summers than Buxton, even though Buxton's over 1000ft high. Back down to sea level places in the east mids on the same (53rd) parallel have summer avgs comparable to Nelson.
Trewartha's subtropical definition doesn't make sense to me as such a definition is not something to be soley based on plant growth. Based on its temps most of NZ shouldn't qualify, winters are too cold in most of the south island and so are summers (in my opinion). Most of England winter's are too cold to grow as much as your part of NZ can but in London and the SE one can grow the same range of things, but for most of the UK inland, you can't. Lower grass growth in SE England is down to less rain than down to colder temperatures.
The south of the UK has more impressive abilities for the fact it is over 50 degrees away from the equator, London and some SE coast places can grow bananas and coconut palms, imagine that on the similar latitude Falkland Islands or even in Invercargill LOL.
A subtropical climate should have a minimum standard of warmth in summer though (maybe not "Hot") but certainly a lot warmer than NZ. The point I was making is, that if where you live was subtropical parts of the south coast of England and London would be (though not most of it) and clearly that's nonsense so I in the end disagree with both Koppen and Trewartha's definitions of subtropical then. Neither New York or NZ is subtropical. With its mild winters and cool summers NZ is firmly where is belongs... temperate, like the UK.
When you think "sub"tropical is only one step down from "tropical" it makes sense to believe there should be a summer season of reasonable heat and torridity at the least and NZ has no such thing.
In my mind as subtropical place should have no winter average less than about 7°C and no summer average less than 22 or even 24°C but I guess I will never get my definition recognised..uh.
By my definition of subtropical the following made up climate averages show one place that would and one place that would not qualify.
In China they use their own criteria. Subtropical climate is divided into three types (each with subtypes):
(1) Northern subtropical zone: January average 0~4 C, record low >-20 C. (Shanghai, Wuhan, Hangzhou...)
(2) Central subtropical zone: January average 4~10 C, record low > -10 C. (Chongqing, Kunming, Changsha...)
(3) Southern subtropical zone: January average 10~15 C, record low > -5 C. (Guangzhou,
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