U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Weather
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 1.5 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Jump to a detailed profile or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Business Search - 14 Million verified businesses
Search for:  near: 
 
 
Old 12-09-2009, 10:11 AM
 
Location: Perth, Western Australia
9,598 posts, read 14,580,476 times
Reputation: 3216
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimac20 View Post
I think you may be correct about your peninsula hypothesis, but still wrong about the fact the gulf stream doesn't warm Florida.
I agree.
In January, the Altantic off South Florida is still 74 F/23 C.
Don't you have to go north of the 20th parallel for SST's that warm for Oz in July?

Add to that the fact that South Florida is almost an island (Gulf of Mexico is 200 km to the west from the Atlantic, but it's 500 km north to leave peninsular Florida), factor in the extensive nearby wetlands (the Everglades)and it should have a high moderating effect when strong north winds aren't blowing.

I believe Florida is both warmer on average and colder for records because it's so close to the Caribbean, one of the world's largest seas AND that mainland U.S. sees insane cold-snaps, compared to anywhere in the southern hemisphere. (north Florida get the full force of the cold snaps, but very-moderated for central and south FL)
Quick reply to this message

 
Old 12-09-2009, 10:59 AM
 
Location: South Dakota
38 posts, read 5,067 times
Reputation: 40
I want to share with you--I woke up to a temp of -1 this morning. The wind was blowing between 20-30 miles per hour. I have no idea what the wind chill factor would be. So I will dress warm for my commute to work and have extra blankets in my car. And tomorrow morning we may have a temp of -9 with wind.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-09-2009, 11:06 AM
 
2,465 posts, read 2,895,813 times
Reputation: 1239
I live in a relative cold place. The past few days we have been having below zero weather. I find for me I can much better stand being out in -10 degrees than in 20 degrees as long as there is no wind. I actually sweat in -10 when I'm out shoveling snow or doing any other physical activity. But I'm freezing to death and can't seem to get warm when it's 20 degrees even if I'm doing the same activities I would be doing in the -10. I think that for me once the temps get past a certain coldness it actually feels hot. Much like if you hold an ice cube. After awhile your hand starts to feel like it's burning rather than freezing.

The only reason I wear a jacket, hat and gloves when the temps get below zero is because of potential frostbite on exposed skin, it's not because I'm cold or freezing. If the temps are between 30 degrees and zero, that is when I feel cold. If the temps are between 30 degrees and 75 degrees that is where I am most comfortable. Anything higher than 75 degrees I get to hot. We usually keep our furnace at 68 degrees 70 at the highest and sometimes those temps. are to warm for me, but we keep it that warm for other members of the family who are not as cold tolerant.

Now when you add in wind to any temperature it gets cold or cooler. If you add wind to -10 dregrees then I feel the cold. I also feel a sense of relief when a wind comes up when the temps are above 75 degrees. Our bodies just don't have enough hair for wind protection, hence the reason for jackets or other forms of clothing. It's the wind that can get to me faster than the cold temps.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-09-2009, 02:27 PM
 
Location: New York City
2,792 posts, read 2,591,178 times
Reputation: 1631
Quote:
Originally Posted by §AB View Post
I always wondered why the northern half of Australia is so under developed. Imagine a big city on Lake Argyle with the rugged Kimberely ranges as a backdrop, or on the huge white sandy expanse of the 80 mile beach in NW WA.
Good question. I'm guessing because primarily European immigrants didn't want to live in a climate that is too hot.
Notice that many cities in the tropics in general are located at high elevation, probably for climate reasons. Some examples:
Sana'a
Nairobi
Addis Ababa
nearly all of Rwanda and Uganda
Mexico City
Bogota
Caracas
San Paulo
Brasilia
La Paz
Bangalore
Bandung
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-09-2009, 02:41 PM
 
Location: USA East Coast
4,444 posts, read 4,211,447 times
Reputation: 1886
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimac20 View Post
The way you define 'sub-tropical' must be consistent for America AND Australia.

If the cities you mention are considered sub-tropical (that's a case of semantics, really), then almost EVERY CITY IN AUSTRALIA must also be considered sub-tropical. Because like LA, Phoenix, Houston, frost is a seldom-seen occurence. Indeed it just snowed quite heavily in Houston. Something that is unknown in almost all of Australia.

I do get that many people live in these warmer cities, but to call them sub-tropical you would also have to consider Australia's 'temperate' areas equally sub-tropical. If you want to call Southern Australia temperate you also have to call all of those sunbelt cities temperate too
I can talk about this all day (world climates)…so let me just ramble a little further since you seem interested. Maybe others can join in.

What you are saying has long been a big climate classification argument here in the USA by climatologists. I studied physical geography/climate …and there was no better way to get the instructor excited about the class - then to start a debate about climate classification. There is the old San Francisco – Savannah argument (lol).

Just about all climate classification uses a modified form of the Koppen system. Most climatologists have now adapted the newer modified Koppen-Trewarth climate classification system in the last 35 years. It breaks down the worlds climate into 6 big groups. Subtropical Climates are defined as having 8 or more months with a mean temperature of 10 C (50 F).




As you can see…all of the cities I listed above in the USA fall into the subtropical climate zone…as well as about 90% of Australia (Cfa ,CS). Large areas of subtropical climates can be found in the southern USA…Southeast Asia (south China, southern Japan)…much of Australia…southern Europe around the Mediterranean…and parts of South America. Melbourne actually straddles the line. However…compare Temperate Melbourne and a Subtropical station in the southern USA for example (I left link for you to see):

Here is the problem with your above statement, and you are most certainly technically correct…but literally very wrong, at least in my opinion…


MELBOURNE, AUSTRALIA - Temperate Oceanic (Do)
MELBOURNE AIRPORT, Weather History and Climate Data
Jan------- -F---------M----------A----------M----------J----------J----------A----------S---------O----------N-----------D
19.5C----20------18.4-------15.2-------12.4------- 9.6------9---------9.9--------11.5 ----- 13.6------15.8------18.1
(67 F)----(68 F)----(65 F)----(59 F)----(54 F)------(49 F)----(48 F)----(49 F)----(52 F)----(56 F)----(60 F)-----(6 5 F)


NEW ORLEANS, USA - Subtropical Humid (Cf)
NEW ORLEANS/MOISANT INT.,, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA Weather History and Climate Data
Jan------- -F----------M----------A----------M----------J----------J----------A----------S---------O----------N----------D
12.2 C----13.6 ----16.9-------20.4-------24-------- 27.1------27.9-----27.9------26.1-----21.5------16.4------13
(54 F)----(56 F)----(62 F)----(69 F)----(75 F)------(81 F)----(82 F)----(82 F)----(79 F)----(71 F)----(61 F)-----(55 F)


You can see the problem…while winter mean temperatures are not all that far apart …summer temperatures are greatly different. While Melbourne has coolish summers with mean temperatures of 18/20 C (65 -68 F)…New Orleans has hot summers of 27 C ( 82 F). Not only is the air temperature much higher in New Orleans… but specific and relative humidity are too. In the American south Atlantic/Gulf states…where maritime tropical air dominates in summer – the average July relative humidity (8 P.M reading) is 70 to 80 %. Combined with daily high temperatures of 32 C (90 F) …the apparent air temperature throughout summer is often near 38 C (100 F) in much of the American humid subtropics. Melbourne (or San Francisco in the USA) on the other hand… has quite cool summers on average. Many Americans who live/raised in the USA subtropical Gulf/south Atlantic states…might even need to wear a jacket if they visited Melbourne in summer (Dec- Feb). San Francisco CA, (USA) has a very similar climate to Melbourne: I wore a jacket most of the June I visited in the 1980’s. Therein lies the problem:

Is it fair to call a place like Melbourne (or even San Francisco in the USA) “subtropical” because they have 8 months over 50 F (and extreme cold/a dusting of snow is even more rare)…yet have a basically cool, oceanic climate, with cooler summers, and more middle latitude floria/funa? A true deep humid subtropical station in the southern USA like New Orleans, Houston, Corpus Christi, Savannah…etc has a cool month or two (with a few nights of frost), with many winter days in the 60’ s and even 70’s F (16 to 25 C) …yet has a long, long hot season of with weather conditions similar to that of the tropics (tropical downpours, tropical cyclones, sultry heat, intense sunlight…etc) Even Sydney cannot compete with the summer heat in the American subtropics.

Is it a case of semantics? I totally disagree, especially in the southern USA. In fact, I would offer that it is southern Australia that should not be included in a true subtropical climate. Cities like Melbourne (and even Sydney to some extent) cannot be made to appear warm because they lack a few cool nights/frost. Even Cities in the humid temperate climate of the USA like… NYC or Washington, DC actually has HOTTER summers than places like Sydney. The “heavy snow” in Houston (1 inch) was a rarity, that’s why it was all over the international news. Two days later…it was 77 F in Houston…however that part might not be so marketable to folks in the media.

The history of climate classification as a process seems to indicate an increasing dependence upon “long term observed characteristics”…instead of grouping locations with a single numerical baseline as a basis for classification. The rare warm or cold day is not the deciding factor in the climate of any location. The natural environment is still the best indicator of the totality of the climate.

Think of it this way…the subtropical American Gulf Coast/South Atlantic states north of Florida…has on rare occasions had snow and freezing temperatures... while those extremes are much rarer in a Temperate Oceanic climate like Melbourne or San Francisco (USA)…yet, how often do you see one of these (which are common in the marsh lowlands of the Gulf and South Atlantic States) around Melbourne…?



..
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-09-2009, 02:59 PM
 
Location: Cook County
5,285 posts, read 3,758,712 times
Reputation: 2989
I just know when it hits 40 degrees after winter, we bust out shorts in the upper midwest, but when it drops to 40 degrees after the summer in the fall, it feels like its freezing outside. So to some extent I would say yes to the OPs intial question.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-09-2009, 06:20 PM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,693 posts, read 15,802,420 times
Reputation: 11862
Wavehunter:

I thought we were discussing the severity of the winter in the two places? lol

But that is where the 'problem' lies, if you will, with climate classification. Just HOW to define sub-tropical? Of course I'm familiar with Koeppen, and I've seen various other classifications, mostly based off that system. I think it does make more sense to classify climates on the predominant yearly climatic 'character' of a place.

In that sense yes, I would agree with you that New Orleans is far more tropical than Melbourne, even if winter conditions are in the same ballpark. I will also say Melbourne does have a more temperate feel and character than most of the Deep South of the US. But, think of places in the tropics at some altitude. Some of these places have summers that are cooler than that of Melbourne (Nairobi, Kenya or Quito, Ecuador). Yet they are still classified as tropical.

But anyway, I personally think both winter and summer conditions are important for classifying climates. My personal measure is anyplace with winters warmer than 10C (50F) and summers warmer than 22C (73F). In that case, that would neatly exclude parts of inland SE Australia, and quite alot of Victoria, including Melbourne. It would also include the vast majority of the South (where winters are below 10C), which are warm temperate in my opinion.

It is a well known fact summers in the Eastern US cities are warmer than Sydney/Melbourne (New York actually on par with Brisbane) but again, summer cannot be taken in isolation.

Yes, alligators lol...Actually alligators are more cold tolerant than Crocodiles (they can survive in frozen over lakes and ponds).
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-09-2009, 06:26 PM
 
5,306 posts, read 5,471,470 times
Reputation: 5119
I may not love being really cold but hot makes me want to lay down and die!
I feel I'm a pretty cold tolerant person. I realize that may change as I age but hasn't happened yet. At the most I can imagine being a 3 month a year snowbird or something. I may lose my tolerance to cold as I get older but I can't imagine ever being able to tolerate the heat.
When I lived somewhere warmer than where I was from for 3 years and then returned it did seem like I noticed the cold a little more than I had, but after awhile I retuurned to "normal".
I do think people vary a lot and thats just the way its. I think there is also something to acclimating to a place. I read somewhere once that if you live in warm temperatures for an extended time that the tiny tiny capillaries and blood vessels rise up through your muscle and fat toward your skin to expel heat, the reverse when you spend most of your time in a cold climate.
Have NO idea whether that is true
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-09-2009, 07:37 PM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,693 posts, read 15,802,420 times
Reputation: 11862
Quote:
Originally Posted by Giesela View Post
I read somewhere once that if you live in warm temperatures for an extended time that the tiny tiny capillaries and blood vessels rise up through your muscle and fat toward your skin to expel heat, the reverse when you spend most of your time in a cold climate.
Have NO idea whether that is true
Probably, the body is a remarkably adaptable thing!
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-09-2009, 08:40 PM
 
Location: New York City
2,792 posts, read 2,591,178 times
Reputation: 1631
Quote:
Originally Posted by Giesela View Post
I do think people vary a lot and thats just the way its. I think there is also something to acclimating to a place. I read somewhere once that if you live in warm temperatures for an extended time that the tiny tiny capillaries and blood vessels rise up through your muscle and fat toward your skin to expel heat, the reverse when you spend most of your time in a cold climate.
Have NO idea whether that is true
You may have read this:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/03/he...gewanted=print

Quote:
Yet as challenging as heat and humidity are, people can acclimate. Blood volume expands, which reduces the strain on the heart from the increased demand for blood flow to the skin and muscles. And sweating increases — people who are heat adapted sweat sooner and more profusely, allowing their bodies to cool more efficiently.
For example, if you are not acclimated and run for an hour in 98-degree heat, your core temperature may go up to 103 degrees, bordering on the danger zone, said Craig Crandall, who studies heat acclimation at the University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center in Dallas. But if you are acclimated, your temperature might be 101 degrees after an hourlong run, which is well within the safety zone. Acclimation takes at least five days, Dr. Cheuvront found. He first asked participants to walk on a treadmill for 100 minutes in a room that was kept at 100 to 120 degrees.
On Day 1, Dr. Cheuvront said, they usually last 30 to 45 minutes. Then, he added, they will either request to get off the treadmill; collapse; or reach the safety-limit core temperature of 104 degrees, at which point they are stopped. By Day 5, just about everyone lasts 100 minutes.
It is possible to adapt even more. Dr. Cheuvront’s subjects continued to improve when they walked on the treadmill in that hot room for five more days.
Some people naturally adapt to heat much more than others. But Dr. Cheuvront said he had never come across a person who did not adapt at all.
The key to acclimation, he said, is to exercise in the heat daily and to be sure you are sweating profusely — wearing extra layers of clothing can help if you are exercising indoors or in cooler weather. Given a choice between spending more time in the heat but exercising less intensely, or less time and exercising more intensely, it is safer to choose to go longer and work less intensely, he said.
Also from what I know, adaptation to cold does not work nearly as well as to heat, if at all.
Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


 
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:
Over $79,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Weather

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2014, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 - Top