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View Poll Results: Would you let your SO go to a bachelor party full of adult dancers (just dancers, not hookers!)?
Yes 43 70.49%
No 18 29.51%
Voters: 61. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-24-2008, 04:27 PM
 
1,072 posts, read 1,512,814 times
Reputation: 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuburnJack View Post
"Having eyes only for him/her..."

"Keeping my thoughts pure when I do so..."

What horribly unrealistic expectations. And dishonest ones, to boot.

Those of you who are espousing this are absolutely stating, with a straight face, that you have never had a sexual thought about an attractive person you've seen or met after getting married? Not once? Not even for just a second, before dismissing it as a harmless fantasy? That you've never once entertained the notion of what this guy might be like in bed, or what you might have done with that guy back in your single days? Not one time?

I don't buy it. That sounds like exaggerating (if not downright lying) to prove a point or to assuage a fear, to me. And it speaks to the "all men are pigs" generalization much more than any biological justification, by equating fantasy with adultery.

As far as openly staring at someone, predatory glint in eye, lascivious grin on face... the helpless, disrespected wife fretfully standing by... well, I think that's a pretty disingenuous example. Naturally, that's selfish and inconsiderate behavior. However, it also points to a specific type of husband that is obviously lacking in a whole lot of categories, rather than shedding any light on why it's morally wrong for an otherwise decent man to go to a bachelor party with strippers.
BRAVO, BRAVO! MARI4HIM, you listening?
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Old 07-30-2008, 07:07 PM
 
Location: USA
1,246 posts, read 2,016,211 times
Reputation: 738
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuburnJack View Post
"Having eyes only for him/her..."

"Keeping my thoughts pure when I do so..."

What horribly unrealistic expectations. And dishonest ones, to boot.

Those of you who are espousing this are absolutely stating, with a straight face, that you have never had a sexual thought about an attractive person you've seen or met after getting married? Not once? Not even for just a second, before dismissing it as a harmless fantasy? That you've never once entertained the notion of what this guy might be like in bed, or what you might have done with that guy back in your single days? Not one time?

I don't buy it. That sounds like exaggerating (if not downright lying) to prove a point or to assuage a fear, to me. And it speaks to the "all men are pigs" generalization much more than any biological justification, by equating fantasy with adultery.

As far as openly staring at someone, predatory glint in eye, lascivious grin on face... the helpless, disrespected wife fretfully standing by... well, I think that's a pretty disingenuous example. Naturally, that's selfish and inconsiderate behavior. However, it also points to a specific type of husband that is obviously lacking in a whole lot of categories, rather than shedding any light on why it's morally wrong for an otherwise decent man to go to a bachelor party with strippers.
That is absolutely what I am saying and yes with an absolute and confident straight face because it is true. Of course, you are going to assume, claim, and accuse that it can't be true and that I must be lying. However, you don't know me, don't know the type of person I am or how seriously I take my values and commitments. Therefore, you can accuse and claim all you like. However, it doesn't change a thing, I am still who I am and what is true about me and my relationship remains true with or without your disbelief.

Believe it or not there are people in this world that can and do in fact remain loyal to their partners completely and totally... even in their thought life. I happen to be one of those.

I firmly believe that in a relationship where both partners are in love and happy with each other, it is very plausible that this is the case. I also firmly believe that when the mind begins to wander to thoughts as the ones you have mentioned, it is a red flag to the person that something is wrong within the relationship. Something may be lacking which is causing this person to delve into the fantasy world rather than enjoy their reality. I happen to love my reality and that reality involves my husband, not other men.
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Old 07-30-2008, 07:08 PM
 
Location: USA
1,246 posts, read 2,016,211 times
Reputation: 738
Quote:
Originally Posted by sms0511 View Post
BRAVO, BRAVO! MARI4HIM, you listening?
Ohhhhh I'm listening, I'm just not buying it nor am I convinced. I stand by what I said.
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Old 07-30-2008, 07:24 PM
 
Location: Beautiful place in Virginia
2,620 posts, read 7,131,086 times
Reputation: 1115
Quote:
Originally Posted by SifuPhil View Post
Even the condemned should have a last meal.

I'm a guy.
Ditto.

However, I would like to add that he get a shopping spree to include getting a Harley Davidson Motorcycle, Plasma TV, Pool Table, Pool, Hot Tub, Rolex Watch, Playstation 3, and a brand new sports car before the marriage - since he won't get those when he gets hitched.

---------
That reminds me of a drive I had with my wife's uncle when we were in a small town in India:

A car passed us with shoes and other stuff hanging from the back of the car with the sign "Just Married".

I looked at my 'uncle' and smiled and he smiled back. Then we both started laughing.

"That's the end of his life", my uncle said. We continued to laugh hysterically.
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Old 07-30-2008, 07:45 PM
 
681 posts, read 1,688,281 times
Reputation: 496
Quote:
Originally Posted by sms0511 View Post
BRAVO, BRAVO! MARI4HIM, you listening?
I have to take issue with this direct attack on someone who is actually taking a stand for morality on this forum rather than going with ultra-modern liberal views which will only get more and more liberal as time goes on if the train isn't derailed soon. The message to which you responded was this (my responses are in bold blue, for the sake of clarity)

"Having eyes only for him/her..."

"Keeping my thoughts pure when I do so..."

What horribly unrealistic expectations. And dishonest ones, to boot.


You can always shoot for the stars. Nothing about those expectations is dishonest. Read on...

Those of you who are espousing this are absolutely stating, with a straight face, that you have never had a sexual thought about an attractive person you've seen or met after getting married? Not once? Not even for just a second, before dismissing it as a harmless fantasy?


People will have split-second sexual thoughts about others of the opposite gender... it's a reflex action that often cannot be controlled. It's what you DO with those thoughts that matters. For example, when a tall fat woman comes into my field of view, by reflex I am drawn to the attractiveness of her form. It is then my choice from that point... and the right thing to do is look away.

That you've never once entertained the notion of what this guy might be like in bed, or what you might have done with that guy back in your single days? Not one time?

Not everyone does this. I haven't done this once since getting married and believe me, my marriage is nowhere near fairy-tale caliber yet. We're still working on that. I don't imagine "doing" any other girl... because that's mental adultery. Temptations exist... and again it is my choice as far as what I do with those temptations.

I don't buy it. That sounds like exaggerating (if not downright lying) to prove a point or to assuage a fear, to me. And it speaks to the "all men are pigs" generalization much more than any biological justification, by equating fantasy with adultery.


Adultery can be mental or physical if you follow the Christian Bible or the holy scriptures from who knows how many other religions. It's an abstract concept but in the end it turns out to have more truth than most of us realize.

As far as openly staring at someone, predatory glint in eye, lascivious grin on face... the helpless, disrespected wife fretfully standing by... well, I think that's a pretty disingenuous example. Naturally, that's selfish and inconsiderate behavior. However, it also points to a specific type of husband that is obviously lacking in a whole lot of categories, rather than shedding any light on why it's morally wrong for an otherwise decent man to go to a bachelor party with strippers.


If this otherwise decent married man is not looking to indulge fantasies, he would have no need nor desire to go to a bachelor party with strippers. The fact that he'd go at all means that his wife isn't meeting his needs... which could be her fault for being inattentive or his fault for not elucidating those needs to her. It's just a step down the road to cheating even if he doesn't come into physical contact with any of them and even if he has the mental fortitude to keep his thoughts pure.

Mari4Him, I'll back you up. People like us are in the minority but we know that even if we keep getting the royal beatdown in this life, everything will get sorted out in the end. Keep up the good fight!
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Old 07-30-2008, 09:18 PM
 
286 posts, read 463,692 times
Reputation: 96
Ahh strip clubs....

I have never been to a place before where I have met so many soon to be doctors/lawyers/teachers/movie stars

I think it really all boils down to the other person really and respecting them and your relationship. My ex girlfriend would take me to strip clubs, pay for lap dances and even got me 2 strippers for my 21st birthday and paid them to give me a lap dance....my current girlfriend...well, lets just say the one time we did go it was safer for me to leave the money on the bar and let them pick it up lol

As for me, I wouldnt care less if my SO wanted to have one last night of fun with the girls (unless the infamous double standard was involved, then I would have a problem with it on principle alone) Do I think its necessary? No. Personally, I'd rather watch my girl strip for me, throw money at her that she would have spent anyway, and then enjoy the fun
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Old 07-30-2008, 09:27 PM
 
Location: USA
1,246 posts, read 2,016,211 times
Reputation: 738
Quote:
Originally Posted by NWPAguy View Post
I have to take issue with this direct attack on someone who is actually taking a stand for morality on this forum rather than going with ultra-modern liberal views which will only get more and more liberal as time goes on if the train isn't derailed soon. The message to which you responded was this (my responses are in bold blue, for the sake of clarity)

"Having eyes only for him/her..."

"Keeping my thoughts pure when I do so..."

What horribly unrealistic expectations. And dishonest ones, to boot.

You can always shoot for the stars. Nothing about those expectations is dishonest. Read on...

Those of you who are espousing this are absolutely stating, with a straight face, that you have never had a sexual thought about an attractive person you've seen or met after getting married? Not once? Not even for just a second, before dismissing it as a harmless fantasy?

People will have split-second sexual thoughts about others of the opposite gender... it's a reflex action that often cannot be controlled. It's what you DO with those thoughts that matters. For example, when a tall fat woman comes into my field of view, by reflex I am drawn to the attractiveness of her form. It is then my choice from that point... and the right thing to do is look away.

That you've never once entertained the notion of what this guy might be like in bed, or what you might have done with that guy back in your single days? Not one time?

Not everyone does this. I haven't done this once since getting married and believe me, my marriage is nowhere near fairy-tale caliber yet. We're still working on that. I don't imagine "doing" any other girl... because that's mental adultery. Temptations exist... and again it is my choice as far as what I do with those temptations.

I don't buy it. That sounds like exaggerating (if not downright lying) to prove a point or to assuage a fear, to me. And it speaks to the "all men are pigs" generalization much more than any biological justification, by equating fantasy with adultery.

Adultery can be mental or physical if you follow the Christian Bible or the holy scriptures from who knows how many other religions. It's an abstract concept but in the end it turns out to have more truth than most of us realize.

As far as openly staring at someone, predatory glint in eye, lascivious grin on face... the helpless, disrespected wife fretfully standing by... well, I think that's a pretty disingenuous example. Naturally, that's selfish and inconsiderate behavior. However, it also points to a specific type of husband that is obviously lacking in a whole lot of categories, rather than shedding any light on why it's morally wrong for an otherwise decent man to go to a bachelor party with strippers.

If this otherwise decent married man is not looking to indulge fantasies, he would have no need nor desire to go to a bachelor party with strippers. The fact that he'd go at all means that his wife isn't meeting his needs... which could be her fault for being inattentive or his fault for not elucidating those needs to her. It's just a step down the road to cheating even if he doesn't come into physical contact with any of them and even if he has the mental fortitude to keep his thoughts pure.

Mari4Him, I'll back you up. People like us are in the minority but we know that even if we keep getting the royal beatdown in this life, everything will get sorted out in the end. Keep up the good fight!
Thank you NWPA... I know that sadly it is a minority that you and I are speaking of, perhaps that is why the divorce rate and infidelity is so high. Something to consider but of course those who wish to have their cake and eat it too would never see the connection between the mind, heart and actions. Unfortunately today what you see is many people playing married yet living single lives. There is a disconnection between couples and what once was not okay and was avoided, is now embraced as keeping of individuality and excused by biological responses as if we were mere animals with no sense of self-control.

I have never said that we all are not capable of the split second glance, often that glance carries nothing more than a "that person is attractive" type of thought with it. It is, however, when a person allows themselves to dwell on that attractiveness and the glance is held with the allowance of other impure thoughts to enter that door to fantasizing is open. I for one am not one to open that door.

As I have stated, I can find a man attractive as I have not gone blind since saying my vows. My husband can find a woman attractive as he too has not gone blind since exchanging vows with me. However, that is as far as thoughts will ever go for we both have vowed to each other and yes before God to keep our thoughts pure and towards one another. There is a huge, huge difference between thoughts that can appreciate someone's beauty or attractiveness yet remain pure and thoughts that entertain sexual fantasies with someone other than one's spouse. This difference is something that no one can convince me otherwise. To believe otherwise would mean that anyone that ever comments on a person's beauty or attractiveness is having impure sexual thoughts about them, even if that would be for example a grown man towards one's teen daughter. It is just not an accurate assumption. Appreciation of beauty and sexual thoughts are entirely different matters. And I firmly believe that we are capable of not only knowing the difference but also capable of refraining from the latter.

EDIT: To Add... Before someone comes out with "oh yeah well I go to strip clups or adult parties for the appreciation of beauty", I don't buy that either. The whole environment speaks of sexual thoughts and not of beauty. The appreciation of beauty that I speak of goes far beyond a naked body. I do not need to see someone naked to appreciate beauty. I also do not need to throw myself into the lion's mouth just to see if I can overcome it or prove to myself or anyone that I can. The best way to protect a marriage or relationship from infidelity is to avoid the temptations as much as humanly possible. Step one to avoidance is choosing what environments and situations we will allow ourselves to walk into. Again, we do have the ability to make choices and control our thoughts and actions rather than have them control us.

Last edited by mari4him; 07-30-2008 at 09:37 PM..
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Old 07-30-2008, 10:45 PM
 
Location: Wu Dang Mountain
12,890 posts, read 11,875,773 times
Reputation: 8389
Quote:
Originally Posted by mari4him View Post
and excused by biological responses as if we were mere animals with no sense of self-control.[/quote[
We ARE animals - actually, we're BELOW animals in our responses.

Quote:
I have never said that we all are not capable of the split second glance, often that glance carries nothing more than a "that person is attractive" type of thought with it. It is, however, when a person allows themselves to dwell on that attractiveness and the glance is held with the allowance of other impure thoughts to enter that door to fantasizing is open. I for one am not one to open that door.
"Impure" is your label - don't think that it applies to everyone else.


There is a huge, huge difference between thoughts that can appreciate someone's beauty or attractiveness yet remain pure and thoughts that entertain sexual fantasies with someone other than one's spouse. This difference is something that no one can convince me otherwise. To believe otherwise would mean that anyone that ever comments on a person's beauty or attractiveness is having impure sexual thoughts about them, even if that would be for example a grown man towards one's teen daughter. It is just not an accurate assumption. Appreciation of beauty and sexual thoughts are entirely different matters. And I firmly believe that we are capable of not only knowing the difference but also capable of refraining from the latter.
That's called excessive control. It's NATURAL to respond biologically to a stimulating person - to deny that is to deny humanity. Your labels are keeping you from seeing the entire picture.


Quote:
EDIT: To Add... Before someone comes out with "oh yeah well I go to strip clups or adult parties for the appreciation of beauty", I don't buy that either. The whole environment speaks of sexual thoughts and not of beauty. The appreciation of beauty that I speak of goes far beyond a naked body. I do not need to see someone naked to appreciate beauty. I also do not need to throw myself into the lion's mouth just to see if I can overcome it or prove to myself or anyone that I can. The best way to protect a marriage or relationship from infidelity is to avoid the temptations as much as humanly possible. Step one to avoidance is choosing what environments and situations we will allow ourselves to walk into. Again, we do have the ability to make choices and control our thoughts and actions rather than have them control us.
The "whole environment"? How many times have you been in a strip club?

Avoiding temptations is cowardice, plain and simple. If you are indeed so strong, you should fear NOTHING. Anything else is extemporizing...
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Old 07-31-2008, 06:31 AM
 
9,856 posts, read 7,052,751 times
Reputation: 5287
Quote:
Originally Posted by SifuPhil View Post
That's called excessive control. It's NATURAL to respond biologically to a stimulating person - to deny that is to deny humanity. Your labels are keeping you from seeing the entire picture.



The "whole environment"? How many times have you been in a strip club?

Avoiding temptations is cowardice, plain and simple. If you are indeed so strong, you should fear NOTHING. Anything else is extemporizing...
In my opinion giving in to every temptation is mental weakness - if you are strong you should actually be in control of yourself, not have your temptations control you.
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Old 07-31-2008, 07:18 AM
 
Location: Mountain View, CA
932 posts, read 1,734,055 times
Reputation: 816
I'd let her go. I don't see the big deal about it frankly. Yeah, i tend to agree that if you "need" a last "fun night" or something you probably are not ready to be married.. but if its not a need and just something fun you want to do with your friends, particularly if you have a lot of single friends, I don't see the problem with it.

Personally when I get married, I'd like to have a bachelor party, and I'd like there to be some strippers . Not because I "need" that, but because it just sounds like an enjoyable right of passage, and a fun night with the guys.
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