does every city in south florida... (Sunrise, West Palm Beach: crime, how much, house)

[Manny561]

Originally Posted by Tungsten_Udder

All I can say is that you and I must have very different ideas about what counts as a ghetto.

low income mostly rental or government housing. usually prodominately african american or hispanic neighborhoods. areas of higher crime than the surrounding areas.

[Tungsten_Udder]

Originally Posted by Manny561

low income mostly rental or government housing. usually prodominately african american or hispanic neighborhoods. areas of higher crime than the surrounding areas.

And that's different than I'd define ghettos/slums, but even defining it the way you do (although I'd recommend taking out "mostly rental", as that would exclude a lot of areas typically considered ghetto, such as the neighborhoods centered around Tamarind Avenue, because a lot of those folks actually own their homes), most cities in South Florida do NOT have ghettos/slums. For example, where is the area in Atlantis that fits your description? Boca Raton? Wellington? Royal Palm Beach? Palm Springs?

[PBCboy]

Originally Posted by Tungsten_Udder

And that's different than I'd define ghettos/slums, but even defining it the way you do (although I'd recommend taking out "mostly rental", as that would exclude a lot of areas typically considered ghetto, such as the neighborhoods centered around Tamarind Avenue, because a lot of those folks actually own their homes), most cities in South Florida do NOT have ghettos/slums. For example, where is the area in Atlantis that fits your description? Boca Raton? Wellington? Royal Palm Beach? Palm Springs?

The entire city of Palm Springs is pretty damn "ghetto" for the most part. It is a lower income barrio that is very similar to Lake Worth. Boca Raton also has the historic Pearl City and some less than stellar far western sections.



Boca Raton's ghetto pictured above.

[Tungsten_Udder]

Originally Posted by PBCboy

The entire city of Palm Springs is pretty damn "ghetto" for the most part. It is a lower income barrio that is very similar to Lake Worth. Boca Raton also has the historic Pearl City and some less than stellar far western sections.

None of Palm Springs (which is where one of my sisters has lived for the past 18 years, by the way) or Boca Raton matches Manny 561's definition of "ghetto". Are you proposing an alternate definition where a ghetto is simply any lower-income area? Is that all the thread is asking? If all cities in Florida have areas of relatively higher and lower income areas? The answer to that is "no", also. Although I don't know what it has to do with an area being a ghetto.

My sister's family isn't lower income by the way, and neither are any of their neighbors. In fact, when my wife and I were house shopping we were interested in homes near them, but most of the houses that were near the size we were looking for were above our budget. We're not a low income family, either.

Are you possibly mistaking the older (say 50s and 60s) style Florida homes for "ghetto" somehow?

[PBCboy]

Originally Posted by Tungsten_Udder

None of Palm Springs (which is where one of my sisters has lived for the past 18 years, by the way) or Boca Raton matches Manny 561's definition of "ghetto". Are you proposing an alternate definition where a ghetto is simply any lower-income area? Is that all the thread is asking? If all cities in Florida have areas of relatively higher and lower income areas? The answer to that is "no", also. Although I don't know what it has to do with an area being a ghetto.

My sister's family isn't lower income by the way, and neither are any of their neighbors. In fact, when my wife and I were house shopping we were interested in homes near them, but most of the houses that were near the size we were looking for were above our budget. We're not a low income family, either.

Are you possibly mistaking the older (say 50s and 60s) style Florida homes for "ghetto" somehow?

The gangs, poor performing schools (the schools in Palm Springs are rated around 2 and 3 out of 10, that's far below any acceptable standard in this country), and high crime rates contribute to Palm Springs being considered a "ghetto". No one said that the entire city of Boca Raton is ghetto, Manny just pointed out that it has a ghetto.

There are streets in Palm Springs are not even paved. Then again, someone on here tried to defend Belle Glade as well, so I guess some people on here try to glorify valid 'hoods for some reason...

[TriMT7]

As a good friend of mine says, "Ghetto people have to have a place to live too, ya know."

Jupiter's "ghetto" is Limestone Creek... where the old time black residents live (2% of the population). There's also a section near the "industrial" section near the tracks North of Indiantown that is very migrant.

I don't think the city of Atlantis has a ghetto, lol.

[PBCboy]

Originally Posted by TriMT7

As a good friend of mine says, "Ghetto people have to have a place to live too, ya know."

Jupiter's "ghetto" is Limestone Creek... where the old time black residents live (2% of the population). There's also a section near the "industrial" section near the tracks North of Indiantown that is very migrant.

I don't think the city of Atlantis has a ghetto, lol.

The entire city is gated, ha!

[Tungsten_Udder]

Originally Posted by PBCboy

The gangs, poor performing schools (the schools in Palm Springs are rated around 2 and 3 out of 10, that's far below any acceptable standard in this country), and high crime rates contribute to Palm Springs being considered a "ghetto".

You're completely glossing over something here, something that I tried to get you to not gloss over in my previous response to you:

The post of mine that you responded to (your post, #13, in response to my post, #12) was a response to a specific comment from Manny561 wherein he defined what he considers to be a "ghetto" (presumably he gave the necessary and/or sufficient properties for him to call something a "ghetto"). His post, #11, was in response to a comment of mine, post #2, where I said "You and I must have very different ideas about what counts as a ghetto".

The entire point of post #12 was that under his definition of what's to count as a ghetto, there are many cities in Southeastern Florida that do not have areas that fit those criteria. The point wasn't, " . . . and they won't fit any possible definition that anyone else could forward, either". (After all, someone could forward a definition of "ghetto" as follows: "A ghetto is any area where some residents own a pickup truck." And then, under that definition, I think it would be fair to assume that probably every city in Southeastern Florida has a ghetto. However, that definition--and many others that we're getting--bear little resemblance to the conventional, consensus senses of "ghetto". I'm fine with that, but I'll just point out that I'm using a different definition than those other folks are.)

It seems ridiculous to me that I have to explain all this, but here it is.

Having said that, you, PBCboy, and I must also be using very different definitions of what a "ghetto" is. So just what would your definition be? I could take a stab at it based on what you've said so far, and I already suggested something in post#14, but you seem to be adding additional criteria, or changing your criteria, or whatever. So I'll just let you state how you'd define a ghetto.

[PBCboy]

Originally Posted by Tungsten_Udder

You're completely glossing over something here, something that I tried to get you to not gloss over in my previous response to you:

The post of mine that you responded to (your post, #13, in response to my post, #12) was a response to a specific comment from Manny561 wherein he defined what he considers to be a "ghetto" (presumably he gave the necessary and/or sufficient properties for him to call something a "ghetto"). His post, #11, was in response to a comment of mine, post #2, where I said "You and I must have very different ideas about what counts as a ghetto".

The entire point of post #12 was that under his definition of what's to count as a ghetto, there are many cities in Southeastern Florida that do not have areas that fit those criteria. The point wasn't, " . . . and they won't fit any possible definition that anyone else could forward, either". (After all, someone could forward a definition of "ghetto" as follows: "A ghetto is any area where some residents own a pickup truck." And then, under that definition, I think it would be fair to assume that probably every city in Southeastern Florida has a ghetto. However, that definition--and many others that we're getting--bear little resemblance to the conventional, consensus senses of "ghetto". I'm fine with that, but I'll just point out that I'm using a different definition than those other folks are.)

It seems ridiculous to me that I have to explain all this, but here it is.

Having said that, you, PBCboy, and I must also be using very different definitions of what a "ghetto" is. So just what would your definition be? I could take a stab at it based on what you've said so far, and I already suggested something in post#14, but you seem to be adding additional criteria, or changing your criteria, or whatever. So I'll just let you state how you'd define a ghetto.

Well.... here goes my definition!

I'd consider a ghetto to be a run down, high crime area with possible urban decay (though this is not always necessary). If I was describing a city as a whole to be a ghetto then the vast majority of the city would have to fit this criteria, and if not then it would be a specific area of the city. Many of the public services such as schools and such wold also be on the bad side.

[Tungsten_Udder]

Originally Posted by PBCboy

Well.... here goes my definition!

I'd consider a ghetto to be a run down, high crime area with possible urban decay (though this is not always necessary). If I was describing a city as a whole to be a ghetto then the vast majority of the city would have to fit this criteria, and if not then it would be a specific area of the city. Many of the public services such as schools and such wold also be on the bad side.

Okay, although a couple of those terms are not very well correlated to observables without more work.

"Urban decay" I do not have a problem with as being part of the ghetto/slum phenomenon, but it's another term we'd need to define. The Wikipedia definition, while I think it has problems of its own (in terms of being ambiguous and not referring to observables), at least suggests some areas to try to clarify: "Urban decay is a process by which a city, or a part of a city, falls into a state of disrepair. It is characterized by depopulation, economic restructuring, property abandonment, high unemployment, fragmented families, political disenfranchisement, crime, and desolate and unfriendly urban landscapes."

Also, one thing I'd stress in the above is that ghettos are an urban phenomenon, where urban is distinct from suburban, although there are certainly gray areas between what's to count as urban versus suburban. I have no problem calling Irvington, NJ a ghetto/slum, but it's probably close to the border between urban and suburban. Palm Springs--and most of Southeastern Florida is not a place that I'd consider urban, and Palm Springs is not a place that I believe fits any reasonably clarified definition of "urban decay". You probably disagree there, though.

I'm not sure that "run down" is supposed to refer to something not covered by "urban decay", but that would need to be clarified, too.

As for crime and schools, aside from me not agreeing that statistics about them tell folks what they believe they tell them about those things, I just wouldn't make either necessary in the definition of a ghetto, even if crime is usually correlated with ghettos in a causal way (that is, in that the socio-economic situation in ghettos tends to lead to crime, since it seems like a relatively feasible alternative). Schools are completely out of it for me, since I think that the conventional ways in which folks "grade" schools are ridiculous. It's not that I think it would be impossible to grade schools, but I do not agree that the current methods are anything but nonsense.

Re other public services, I'm not sure what else we'd be talking about. Most ghettos in the US have normal sewage systems, garbage pickup (even if not everyone gets the trash in the receptacles necessary for garbage pickup), city water service, etc. Ghettos in other countries may not have those things though.

So if you're not just saying that there are areas of all sufficiently large enough cities (to have multiple schools, separate crime statistics, etc.) in Southeastern Florida that have better and worse schools per the way that schools are currently graded, and that have better and worse crime statistics, then I think you'd need to clarify the other terms. And saying what you'd be saying about schools and crime doesn't seem to have much to do with the term "ghetto". If we plopped most folks down on Davis Road and told them "You're in the ghetto now", they'd justifiably go "Wha?? "