does every city in south florida... (West Palm Beach, Royal Palm Beach: find a job, buying, movies)

[PBCboy]

Originally Posted by Tungsten_Udder

Okay, although a couple of those terms are not very well correlated to observables without more work.

"Urban decay" I do not have a problem with as being part of the ghetto/slum phenomenon, but it's another term we'd need to define. The Wikipedia definition, while I think it has problems of its own (in terms of being ambiguous and not referring to observables), at least suggests some areas to try to clarify: "Urban decay is a process by which a city, or a part of a city, falls into a state of disrepair. It is characterized by depopulation, economic restructuring, property abandonment, high unemployment, fragmented families, political disenfranchisement, crime, and desolate and unfriendly urban landscapes."

Also, one thing I'd stress in the above is that ghettos are an urban phenomenon, where urban is distinct from suburban, although there are certainly gray areas between what's to count as urban versus suburban. I have no problem calling Irvington, NJ a ghetto/slum, but it's probably close to the border between urban and suburban. Palm Springs--and most of Southeastern Florida is not a place that I'd consider urban, and Palm Springs is not a place that I believe fits any reasonably clarified definition of "urban decay". You probably disagree there, though.

I'm not sure that "run down" is supposed to refer to something not covered by "urban decay", but that would need to be clarified, too.

As for crime and schools, aside from me not agreeing that statistics about them tell folks what they believe they tell them about those things, I just wouldn't make either necessary in the definition of a ghetto, even if crime is usually correlated with ghettos in a causal way (that is, in that the socio-economic situation in ghettos tends to lead to crime, since it seems like a relatively feasible alternative). Schools are completely out of it for me, since I think that the conventional ways in which folks "grade" schools are ridiculous. It's not that I think it would be impossible to grade schools, but I do not agree that the current methods are anything but nonsense.

Re other public services, I'm not sure what else we'd be talking about. Most ghettos in the US have normal sewage systems, garbage pickup (even if not everyone gets the trash in the receptacles necessary for garbage pickup), city water service, etc. Ghettos in other countries may not have those things though.

So if you're not just saying that there are areas of all sufficiently large enough cities (to have multiple schools, separate crime statistics, etc.) in Southeastern Florida that have better and worse schools per the way that schools are currently graded, and that have better and worse crime statistics, then I think you'd need to clarify the other terms. And saying what you'd be saying about schools and crime doesn't seem to have much to do with the term "ghetto". If we plopped most folks down on Davis Road and told them "You're in the ghetto now", they'd justifiably go "Wha?? "

How much more do you want me to explain? Give me your definition. Public services can refer to many things from schools to parks, not just water/sewage systems.

Drive down S. Congress Ave in Palm Springs and you will see many buildings that are clearly falling apart yet still have people living in them. Also, you mention Davis Rd... How about Kirk Rd. where many of the streets are not even paved?

I'm just wondering, do you think Lake Worth and Lake Worth Corridor are "nice" too? I'm not sure if you knowledge of these areas is still current as you didn't seem to know too much about the areas surrounding the Palm Beach Mall... In the past areas that were once decent have changed, maybe this is what is causing the confusion?

[Tungsten_Udder]

Originally Posted by PBCboy

How much more do you want me to explain?

I thought I went into a lot of detail about that . . . oh well.

Give me your definition.

Sure, a ghetto in my usage has these characteristicsis: an urban (as opposed to suburban or rural) area (which implies high population density--I'd say at least 10,000 people per square mile), where a significant number (say at least 15-20%) of the buildings are in disrepair close to the point of being condemnable, where a significant percentage of the population (say at least 20-25%) has an income close to or below the poverty line (which are available here: 2008 Poverty Guidelines), Where a significant number (again say at least 15-20%) of households consist of fragmented families (single parents, children of the same family with many different parents, etc., with or without some extended family members), and where there is political disenfranchisement to the extent that it is difficult for members of the community to receive government assistance to fix the various infrastructural problems of the community.

Drive down S. Congress Ave in Palm Springs and you will see many buildings that are clearly falling apart yet still have people living in them.

I can't picture those offhand, which isn't to say there arent any, but Congress in the Palm Springs area is largely commercial.

Also, you mention Davis Rd... How about Kirk Rd. where many of the streets are not even paved?

Your comments about dirt roads are particularly bizarre to me. Why would dirt roads be indicative of an area being ghetto? The house I have under contract is on a dirt road. Most people in that area WANT their homes on dirt roads. They've resisted efforts to have the roads paved.

I'm just wondering, do you think Lake Worth and Lake Worth Corridor are "nice" too?

I think a lot of Lake Worth is nice, yes. There are a lot of homes I'd buy there without a moment's hesitation if I could afford them.

I'm not sure if you knowledge of these areas is still current as you didn't seem to know too much about the areas surrounding the Palm Beach Mall...

I'm not sure what we're disagreeing on about areas surrounding the Palm Beach Mall.

In the past areas that were once decent have changed, maybe this is what is causing the confusion?

Again, I think it's rather a disagreement over things like what counts as a "ghetto".

[Manny561]

Originally Posted by Tungsten_Udder

I thought I went into a lot of detail about that . . . oh well. Sure, a ghetto in my usage has these characteristicsis: an urban (as opposed to suburban or rural) area (which implies high population density--I'd say at least 10,000 people per square mile), where a significant number (say at least 15-20%) of the buildings are in disrepair close to the point of being condemnable, where a significant percentage of the population (say at least 20-25%) has an income close to or below the poverty line (which are available here: 2008 Poverty Guidelines), Where a significant number (again say at least 15-20%) of households consist of fragmented families (single parents, children of the same family with many different parents, etc., with or without some extended family members), and where there is political disenfranchisement to the extent that it is difficult for members of the community to receive government assistance to fix the various infrastructural problems of the community. I can't picture those offhand, which isn't to say there arent any, but Congress in the Palm Springs area is largely commercial. Your comments about dirt roads are particularly bizarre to me. Why would dirt roads be indicative of an area being ghetto? The house I have under contract is on a dirt road. Most people in that area WANT their homes on dirt roads. They've resisted efforts to have the roads paved. I think a lot of Lake Worth is nice, yes. There are a lot of homes I'd buy there without a moment's hesitation if I could afford them. I'm not sure what we're disagreeing on about areas surrounding the Palm Beach Mall. Again, I think it's rather a disagreement over things like what counts as a "ghetto".

ok if the population density has to be 10000 or over per square mile you could say palm beach county has no ghetto. lake worth is about 6000 per square mile and many other areas have less. palm beach county has small cities. theyre not like new york city. but they are still bad. and about the dirt roads. yes some nice areas have dirt roads but theyre not filled with broken beer bottles, pot holes and things of the such. i hate driving down some road s in lake worth cuz im scared ima pop my tires. the majority of lake worth is ghetto especially the southside. the east east side is decent and the areas by lake clark shores is good too. but other than that there are shootings robberies stabbings rapes anything you can name happens. lantana doesnt look that bad when you drive thru it but someone was shot at the taco bell sitting in the drive thru. you can say its not ghetto, but dont say that to the wrong person cuz you might live to say it again

[Tungsten_Udder]

Originally Posted by Manny561

ok if the population density has to be 10000 or over per square mile you could say palm beach county has no ghetto.

Well, I think that Palm Beach County has one ghetto (and not only did I go to school there, I had a lot of friends who lived there where I used to stay over their houses, I dated women who lived there, and I lived there myself at one point). I'd guess that the population density in that ghetto is close to that, but that wouldn't be the same as the population density of the entire city of West Palm Beach, which has an odd shape that goes way out to the Bee Line Highway and along it, and includes areas with far less population density, making the population density average of West Palm Beach much less.

. . . but they are still bad.

While I do not think that the chance that an average Joe is going to be a crime victim is subjective, really, I do not think that crime statistics tell us whether an average Joe is going to be a crime victim, and I think the assessment that an area is "bad" is certainly subjective. Most areas of Southeastern Florida are nothing that I would call bad. However, I realize that I'm way on the other extreme of that--I'm someone who doesn't feel unsafe driving around Johannesburg with a nice car and my windows rolled down. You should see the arguments I've gotten into with City-Data folks about Jersey City (some of which I agree is ghetto--much like WPB's, and a lot of which is not at all ghetto). Many people who post here act deathly afraid of it (and seem to believe that it's ALL ghetto). I keep offering to walk around with them (because I really would like to try to get a better handle on just what it is they're so afraid of on a non-abstract level--that is, aside from being aware of crime statistics), but no one will take me up on it--I'm sure I'll do the same thing with folks here about Southeast Florida once I'm finally down there full time again.

But for more normal people (lol), like my sister I've been mentioning, say, she doesn't consider the majority of Southeastern Florida unsafe, either. In my assessment, she is very paranoid about many things (she even homeschooled her kids until high school because of that), and she is very easily frightened. She wouldn't go to the Palm Beach Mall, either, but she has absolutely no problem living in Palm Springs.

and about the dirt roads. yes some nice areas have dirt roads but theyre not filled with broken beer bottles, pot holes and things of the such.

Have you driven in Loxahatchee Groves much? Not that that's where I'm headed to (we're working on another part of Loxahatchee), but I'm just wondering what you'd think about that area. I can't imagine you thinking it's much better than the dirt roads in the Palm Springs area.

[PBCboy]

Originally Posted by Tungsten_Udder

Have you driven in Loxahatchee Groves much? Not that that's where I'm headed to (we're working on another part of Loxahatchee), but I'm just wondering what you'd think about that area. I can't imagine you thinking it's much better than the dirt roads in the Palm Springs area.

Loxahatchee is purposely rural, thus the dirt roads. Palm Springs and Lake Worth Corridor are much more urban than Loxahatchee so the dirt rounds are very inconvenient.

[Manny561]

Originally Posted by Tungsten_Udder

Well, I think that Palm Beach County has one ghetto (and not only did I go to school there, I had a lot of friends who lived there where I used to stay over their houses, I dated women who lived there, and I lived there myself at one point). I'd guess that the population density in that ghetto is close to that, but that wouldn't be the same as the population density of the entire city of West Palm Beach, which has an odd shape that goes way out to the Bee Line Highway and along it, and includes areas with far less population density, making the population density average of West Palm Beach much less. While I do not think that the chance that an average Joe is going to be a crime victim is subjective, really, I do not think that crime statistics tell us whether an average Joe is going to be a crime victim, and I think the assessment that an area is "bad" is certainly subjective. Most areas of Southeastern Florida are nothing that I would call bad. However, I realize that I'm way on the other extreme of that--I'm someone who doesn't feel unsafe driving around Johannesburg with a nice car and my windows rolled down. You should see the arguments I've gotten into with City-Data folks about Jersey City (some of which I agree is ghetto--much like WPB's, and a lot of which is not at all ghetto). Many people who post here act deathly afraid of it (and seem to believe that it's ALL ghetto). I keep offering to walk around with them (because I really would like to try to get a better handle on just what it is they're so afraid of on a non-abstract level--that is, aside from being aware of crime statistics), but no one will take me up on it--I'm sure I'll do the same thing with folks here about Southeast Florida once I'm finally down there full time again.

But for more normal people (lol), like my sister I've been mentioning, say, she doesn't consider the majority of Southeastern Florida unsafe, either. In my assessment, she is very paranoid about many things (she even homeschooled her kids until high school because of that), and she is very easily frightened. She wouldn't go to the Palm Beach Mall, either, but she has absolutely no problem living in Palm Springs. Have you driven in Loxahatchee Groves much? Not that that's where I'm headed to (we're working on another part of Loxahatchee), but I'm just wondering what you'd think about that area. I can't imagine you thinking it's much better than the dirt roads in the Palm Springs area.

ok yo. i want you to walk down 15th or 16th ave south, 7 or 8th ave north, walk up to the first person you see with some gold teeth(cuz there are alot) and tell them lake worth isnt hard, tell them they dont live in the ghetto. first theyll laugh, then theyll prolly lay you out and steal your wallet. and about the average joe statement. just tonite in delray, a man walked into a dunkin donuts and i think some where else and just started shootin people, and robbed the stores. my mom was robbed at gunpoint in a lantana kmart parking lot at 10:30 in the morning. an old lady got robbed at gunpoint in the wellington mall parking lot in the middle of the day. 2 people got shot at the taco bell by my house in lantana. 85 percent of lake worth is slum, the northside of west palm is slum, anywhere off seacrest north of woolbright in boynton is slum. all of riviera is slum, kirk and 10th all the way to 6th is slum. west gate is slum. all of belle glade is slum. west of downtown off atlantic is slum. pahokee is slum. southbay is slum. crime happens everyday to average people in this county. you can get your head blown off in a dunkin donuts. you can get robbed in broad daylight. you can get carjacked in broad daylight. you can find drugs anywhere, and i mean literally anywhere in this county. you can find guns. you can find hookers. im in lake worth everyday. you tell me these areas arent ghetto when i see the sheriff chopper out 5 days out of the week lookin for people, or the sirens i hear every hour or so, or the crime i see first hand. i was jumped on dixie in lantana for no reason during 5 oclock traffic just to get my ipod i was listening to while waitin for the bus. i dont know where youre from but where im from its gutter.

[Banx]

No there are no ghettos in PBC. Now, neighborhoods that are predominantly African-American with lower income? Yes. But ghetto, as in crime related? No, not anywhere near the extent that people in northern cities would consider ghetto at least. Anybodies who's had any experience in any large city, ranging from ATL, NYC, Chicago, New Orleans, Houston, Memphis, Baltimore, DC, etc. would laugh at the so-called "ghettos" in PBC.

[Manny561]

lake worth in 2005 or 2006 had a murder rate of 33 murders per 100000 people. NYC has 7. West Palm had 22 last year or the year before. Crime is horrible in these cities. you dont live here. i do. they may not have housing projects that are 10 stories high, but they dont need them. we have a smaller population. why do you think lake worth cops switched over to sheriffs. crime is horrible. i dont give a **** what anybody says cuz they obviously havent seen what ive seen in this county.

[Caleb Longstreet]

Sure do, let me go back through my memory (89-97 and visiting ever since).....

Dade: Who could forget that crown jewel of crime. Liberty City and Overtown, little HYJALEAHUH, the grove, throughout downtown, North of the Airport....

Broward: Wow, where to begin.....Dania, Sunrise East and slightly West, East Deerfield Beach (did you see the rock monsters migrate west at 48th street when that bridge was completed or what?)....East and slightly West Atlantic Blvd.... and pretty much up the I-95 corridor, East side primarily past Pompano, Boca is stable, continue north of there and ultimately you get to see the area the WPB "fathers" flattened east of I-95 just west of downtown Palm Beach....

Ahhhhh, where's Brett when you need him? Oh yeah, he's in Flowery Branch enjoying life ....heh heh heh....

[Manny561]

Originally Posted by Banx

No there are no ghettos in PBC. Now, neighborhoods that are predominantly African-American with lower income? Yes. But ghetto, as in crime related? No, not anywhere near the extent that people in northern cities would consider ghetto at least. Anybodies who's had any experience in any large city, ranging from ATL, NYC, Chicago, New Orleans, Houston, Memphis, Baltimore, DC, etc. would laugh at the so-called "ghettos" in PBC.

this video speaks for me.
MySpaceTV Videos: T-Dot "Who Give a ****" (Total-freestyle Video) by total freestyle