West Virginia...Southern or Northern? (Charleston, Huntington: living in, mall, moving)

[David Kennedy]

Slave population? The freed blacks were moved into segregated parts of the counties in Virginia.
They farmed and lived their lives with out too much turmoil. The area north-west of Philippi was congregated by freed blacks who intermarried and a few of their descendants still hold some of that land...Barbour county.

The slave population that you are mentioning were the salt well workers of the K Valley.
Several prominent business people, the Jacksons of Clarksburg owned land there and send their slaves to work their wells. The salt deposits were found early (1780's) and lumber would be rafted out to Cinncinatti and packhorses used to deliver the salt back up to Morgantown and Pittsburgh before the steamboats (1805)

[Colby "The Punk" Wells]

Originally Posted by David Kennedy

Slave population? The freed blacks were moved into segregated parts of the counties in Virginia.
They farmed and lived their lives with out too much turmoil. The area north-west of Philippi was congregated by freed blacks who intermarried and a few of their descendants still hold some of that land...Barbour county.

The slave population that you are mentioning were the salt well workers of the K Valley.
Several prominent business people, the Jacksons of Clarksburg owned land there and send their slaves to work their wells. The salt deposits were found early (1780's) and lumber would be rafted out to Cinncinatti and packhorses used to deliver the salt back up to Morgantown and Pittsburgh before the steamboats (1805)

Thank you very much, David (not being sarcastic). I actually never knew any of that. I learn something new everyday.

[appalachiangirl]

I read that one reason the people in western VA (now WV) pre Civil War didn't feel they had as much in common with VA was that the coastal areas of VA had the large plantations whereas West Virginia was more a region of small farms and few slave holders. Plantations in the East seemed more developed along the coastal area than mountain regions. This is true in other states as well--highland North and South Carolina were more like WV ,whereas tobacco was grown in coastal NC and rice along the SC coast Which was where more plantations were located. Cotton was grown a lot in GA,AL,MS--Deep South areas. Maybe this is why some WV consider themselves more "northern" than "southern". I see many more Confederate flags in areas south of Beckley and not too many in northern and central WV.

[Colby "The Punk" Wells]

Originally Posted by appalachiangirl

I read that one reason the people in western VA (now WV) pre Civil War didn't feel they had as much in common with VA was that the coastal areas of VA had the large plantations whereas West Virginia was more a region of small farms and few slave holders. Plantations in the East seemed more developed along the coastal area than mountain regions. This is true in other states as well--highland North and South Carolina were more like WV ,whereas tobacco was grown in coastal NC and rice along the SC coast Which was where more plantations were located. Cotton was grown a lot in GA,AL,MS--Deep South areas. Maybe this is why some WV consider themselves more "northern" than "southern". I see many more Confederate flags in areas south of Beckley and not too many in northern and central WV.

You make an excellent point App. girl, and I agree with you 100%. The mountains made a huge difference between western and eastern Virginia. Crops grew in eastern Va along with slavery and there wasn't much going on for western Va at the time.

I know there are some West Virginians out there that claim they are Northerners, unfortunately, and I think it's really sad to hear, because I really think they are true Southerners, they just don't realize it.

But anyway, I've actually found quite a few Confederate flags in northern WV. I have even heard about some people with Confederate flags in southwestern PA (Westmoreland County).

Film explores Pa.'s Confederate rebels without a cause - Pittsburgh Tribune-Review

And here's the video mentioned in the article. (Notice the dude with the motorcycle is wearing some sort of American/Confederate flag WV shirt.)

Confederate Pennsylvania // Current

[David Kennedy]

My people were Irish...they hated the English and fought against them in the Rev. War.

When the landed gentry of the Virginia government became stifiling here...(a form of taxation without representation)...the resentments were transfered...
as I said before, slavery was a property issue...not a moral one...the morality part came in the 1960's...
and we are to feel guilty about a situation of another generation, place or time? Get real!

[Colby "The Punk" Wells]

Originally Posted by David Kennedy

My people were Irish...they hated the English and fought against them in the Rev. War.

When the landed gentry of the Virginia government became stifiling here...(a form of taxation without representation)...the resentments were transfered...
as I said before, slavery was a property issue...not a moral one...the morality part came in the 1960's...
and we are to feel guilty about a situation of another generation, place or time? Get real!

I'm totally with you on this one Dave. We really shouldn't feel guilty about what happened years ago. It's a thing of the past and there's nothing we can do to change it.

[Bobilee]

I think these three maps will help put a little perspective on this issue. While I enjoy personal anecdotes they have no real definitive persuasion. The maps are as follows:

1. The TELSUR map from the Univ. of PA. This covers the entire U.S., they take actual speech samples and analyze them according to common speech patterns. As you see, they place the Southern dialect in West Virginia from the southwest corner up through Clarksburg and the eastern panhandle. This does not mean that someone from Martinsburg is supposed to sound like someone from Plains, GA, or New Orleans. It only means that they share many common speech habits.

2. The 2000 U.S. Census Ancestry Map. Sorry for the blurred copy, but I believe I posted the entire map early in the thread, this small section is just for contrast. You can see that West Virginia defines itself in common with Virginia and Kentucky, distinct from Ohio and PA. They identify themselves as "American" in ancestry, but that is usually read as "Southern", and not just by me. There was a thread on the General City Data page on exactly this topic just a few months ago.

3. A map of the Confederate counties of West Virginia. It should actually include a few more, since some counties switched sides once West Virginia was invaded by Ohio, I particularly refer to Cabell and Wayne counties.

4. This is not a map, but a survey. The Southern Focus Poll, conducted by the Univ. of North Carolina, found that approximately half (45%) of West Virginians identified themselves as Southern. Kentucky and Virginia were much higher, but I attribute the lower percentage to the state educational system which has for 100 years conducted a systematic disinformation program on the State's history. West Virginians have been taught that they are sympathetic to the North, though in their secret hearts they know this is not true. I will quote a passage from McGregor's "Disruption of Virginia"---"On almost the last day of the constitutional convention of November, 1861, according to the manuscript, a motion was made that the records of the convention be printed. One of the delegates opposed this motion for the reason that the discussion had revealed so plainly the opposition of the people of West Virginia both to the North and to the new state that the publication of the debates might interfere with the admission of the state."

GottaHerdOn:"My friends from Alabama and other southern states laugh when I ask them if they considered WV a southern state."

GHO, your experience is not uncommon. I would suggest if you want to have a little fun with your friends, they next time you ask that question and they laugh, hand them paper and pen and ask them specifically to write out WHY they are laughing. I bet they shut up fast. And the few who do write anything I am certain will write total nonsense.

Appalachiangirl: Regarding your comment that you saw few Confederate flags in central WV, that may be true, but I would like to mention a memorable quote from a Marietta OH newspaper which, in describing the guerrilla war in West Virginia, called central WV "the heart of Africa". The people in these counties were considered so savage that Gen. Crook organized a burn and pillage expedition through Braxton county and Sutton. I corresponded with a lady who does extensive historical research on mostly Unionist northern WV, and she told me that she ran into people in Calhoun county who to this day curse the name of Gen. Benjamin Kelley, who referred to most West Virginians as "savages". The ironic outcome of this was that both Generals Kelley and Crook were humiliated by West Virginia Confederates when they were kidnapped way behind Union lines by Hardy County's McNeil Rangers.

David K: Slavery was indeed of little importance in West Virginia's separation from Virginia. People forget, if they ever knew, that many if not most of the Wheeling government were slave owners. One legislator, Mr. Lewis, said that he voted against Secession because he believed it would be the end of slavery (he was right). Another, Mr. Burdett, said that he was "as good a pro-slavery man as any in the state." You could hardly find a more Confederate county in the state than Calhoun, yet they only had 9 slaves in the entire county.

I think West Virginia is mostly a Southern state with a heavy Northern influence. I also think that most West Virginians do not really know where they or the State came from, thanks to the duplicitous nature of the history as taught in the schools. I do not think it an exaggeration when I say that West Virginia history as taught is similar to Soviet methodology.

[appalachiangirl]

Confederate flags make me a little nervous,only because hate groups have adopted them,and occasionally I may wonder when I see one on someone's car/truck--is that person racist and bigoted or just a Dukes of Hazard fan or displaying it for historical/cultural reasons. I don't identify as much with it because my ancestors (majority of them) came to America after the Civil War in the 1880s and 1890s. I kind of wish I knew more about my family history,but only know it as far back as 100-120 yrs. My great grandparents did have a general store near the Clarksburg area but lost it during the depression, and then my great grandfather and grandfather worked in various coal mines in PA and WV.

[David Kennedy]

I knew a man who owned Colonel McNeils sword...here's the story and I have it video tapeed in my archives.

Mr. X's grandfather was a young man...just a boy when Colonel McNeil came home from the war. He was riding down the hill into Moorefield from the Wardensvillle Road...when he came to the boy, he stopped to say hello..He took his sword from the saddle ring and gave it to the boy saying..."I'm finished with this war...we did our best...I hope you never have to use this to defend our land."

The sword is still in that family unless it has been recently sold. It's value would be about 10k. With it, is a photo of General Lee and all of his Confederate Colonels...McNeil is among those in the photo. Colonel McNeil went on to operate the McNeil Hotel in Moorefield and it still stands...I do not know if it is a historical site or is still used as a hotel...When I get over to Moorefield this summer I'll check it out...

[Bobilee]

DavidK: That is very interesting, I hope they preserve it. So much WV history is so fragile that it is easily lost. My dad told me that as a young man hunting in the hills around Huntington he often crossed an old plantation property with slave shacks in back, the main house still had the chandeliers hanging, but I-95 tore it all down. I-95 also tore down by great-great-grandfather's farm, which had been built around a log cabin. He was a blacksmith in Guyandotte when it was burned down. He named my great-grandfather (born 1863) John Stonewall Jackson Overby, and my dad and I were named after Robert E. Lee. Here is a link to the story of the McNeil Ranger's and the kidnapping of Crook and Kelley. My favorite part is at the end of the war: "The majority of the McNeill Partisan Rangers met a company of Federals a mile west of Romney on May 8, 1865. The Rangers remained on one side of the South Branch River and the main body of Federals on the other. Two or three officers and a half dozen men crossed the river and came face to face with Captain McNeill and his men. No unnecessary ceremony followed. The Rangers threw down their arms and were paroled. The Federal officer in charge then observed that the implements of war before him were museum pieces at best and not the excellent captured Federal rifles that most of the Rangers were known to possess. "A competent Judge who saw the arms piled on the ground declared they were not worth ten dollars a ton. Federal accepted them with reluctance. A controversy that could have had disastrous results then followed. The terms of surrender between General Lee and General Grant had allowed the Confederates to keep their horses, but required them to surrender their arms and equipment. Almost every Ranger had captured his equipment on the field of battle. This included everything from new federal saddles to Federal blankets. The Rangers considered this equipment spoils of war and steadfastly refused to give them up. The Federal officers were just as insistent that they be surrendered along with the antiquated rifles. A stalemate ensued, and Captain McNeill declared that he would not surrender at all unless permitted to keep the equipment. The Federal officers began to fear for their safety. They realized that the bulges under the coats of McNeill's men were revolvers and that the main body of their forces were across broad South Branch River. A small boat was the only means of crossing the river, and the Federal officers had no illusions as to who had the upper hand at this particular time. Without delay, the officer in charge gave permission to keep the Federal equipment and the Rangers immediately left the scene." The McNeill Rangers: A Study in Confederate Guerrilla Warfare