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Old 05-31-2013, 09:04 PM
 
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No, city in WV could influence the census bureau. It is federal. The senators and congressmen in DC would have a little power.

Charleston doesnt or Clarksburg do not deserve the blame for the census nonsense. That is federal BS not state BS.

 
Old 05-31-2013, 09:30 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbailey1138 View Post
If any such state "influence" over the Census Bureau existed, wouldn't Charleston have had the most power to exert and thus not have lost two counties from its MSA? Logic would tell you such influence does not exist based on that occurrence alone.
Not necessarily. The most powerful Federal politico in the state is Sen. Rockefeller. He has been hanging around DC long enough to wield enormous influence. Favors are traded all the time. in that environment.
Believe me, I don't believe political parties mean a thing these days. The are all crooks. But Charleston has been trending toward a party that is not in power in the administration or the Senate in Washington. And, Manchin is known to favor Clarksburg's position. There are lots of factors that could cause high ranking Census officials to favor a particular criteria of evaluation over another to bring about a desired result.
 
Old 05-31-2013, 09:33 PM
 
10,147 posts, read 14,988,188 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cry_havoc View Post
No, city in WV could influence the census bureau. It is federal. The senators and congressmen in DC would have a little power.

Charleston doesnt or Clarksburg do not deserve the blame for the census nonsense. That is federal BS not state BS.
I'm not blaming Charleston or Clarksburg. I'm saying politicos who favor one position over another can call in their favors and get pressure from the Administration on any government agency to use one criteria more than another to bring about a particular result. If you think all those politicians are just interested in fair play and accuracy, I believe you are very mistaken. Political influence exerted on government agencies causes certain decisions to be made on a regular basis, both in Washington, and in Charleston. I worked for many years in Civil Service. There is no doubt in my mind that a whole lot of decisions are politically based.
 
Old 05-31-2013, 09:51 PM
 
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Originally Posted by CTMountaineer View Post
I'm not blaming Charleston or Clarksburg. I'm saying politicos who favor one position over another can call in their favors and get pressure from the Administration on any government agency to use one criteria more than another to bring about a particular result. If you think all those politicians are just interested in fair play and accuracy, I believe you are very mistaken. Political influence exerted on government agencies causes certain decisions to be made on a regular basis, both in Washington, and in Charleston. I worked for many years in Civil Service. There is no doubt in my mind that a whole lot of decisions are politically based.
Im not denying they have influence, but I doubt anyone Senator could arrange this. Assuming they could why would they want to?

I have plenty of issues with the census but it is with its nature, criteria, and methodology. You are arguing a conspiracy theory. Unlike most posters in this forum I dont change the way I view the world based on the argument, but apply a consistent logic. Without proof of a conspiracy by politicians to purposely manipulate the census to effect Morgantown, which in turn will effect the whole country, I wouldnt argue this.

It is safe to say that the government does manipulate the census. All data gathering, reports, etc are manipulated. It is why Republicans and Democrats have reports verified by their people in federal agencies stating opposite things. Whoever is in charge gets to make up more. So the census is manipulated by MANY people. It is possible that Rockfellar COULD be involved, but to go out of his way to mess with Morgantown?
 
Old 05-31-2013, 10:03 PM
 
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Originally Posted by cry_havoc View Post
Im not denying they have influence, but I doubt anyone Senator could arrange this. Assuming they could why would they want to?

I have plenty of issues with the census but it is with its nature, criteria, and methodology. You are arguing a conspiracy theory. Unlike most posters in this forum I dont change the way I view the world based on the argument, but apply a consistent logic. Without proof of a conspiracy by politicians to purposely manipulate the census to effect Morgantown, which in turn will effect the whole country, I wouldnt argue this.

It is safe to say that the government does manipulate the census. All data gathering, reports, etc are manipulated. It is why Republicans and Democrats have reports verified by their people in federal agencies stating opposite things. Whoever is in charge gets to make up more. So the census is manipulated by MANY people. It is possible that Rockfellar COULD be involved, but to go out of his way to mess with Morgantown?
There are only 100 Senators in this whole very large country of hundreds of millions of people. A US Senator is a very powerful person. Often for close votes even one Senator's vote can be hugely important, and if the administration wants to get something through, they often have to trade off favors for it.

Why would a Senator want to support one position over another? Think about that for a minute. Senators depend on grass roots support to stay in office. If they get more support from one area than from another, and more money from particular supporters who favor a particular decision, they have a vested interest in pushing for that outcome. If an issue is real important to a particular constituent, there is strong pressure to push for that measure or outcome.

Frankly, I don't think he is messing with Morgantown. I really don't think Morgantown cares one way or another. I think at least one and possibly two senators favor pushing for something that is perceived as being important to Clarksburg/Bridgeport. They have recently pushed real hard to maintain autonomy. It's a tug of war they will probably lose in the end, but for some strange reason it is important to them. The Charleston-Huntington thing is something else altogether. Those areas are struggling to even maintain their current situations economically, so they need all the help they can get to attract business investment. That sometimes pits one against the other.
 
Old 05-31-2013, 10:11 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CTMountaineer View Post
There are only 100 Senators in this whole very large country of hundreds of millions of people. A US Senator is a very powerful person. Often for close votes even one Senator's vote can be hugely important, and if the administration wants to get something through, they often have to trade off favors for it.

Why would a Senator want to support one position over another? Think about that for a minute. Senators depend on grass roots support to stay in office. If they get more support from one area than from another, and more money from particular supporters who favor a particular decision, they have a vested interest in pushing for that outcome. If an issue is real important to a particular constituent, there is strong pressure to push for that measure or outcome.
That is still relying on three very big and unfounded assumptions.

First, that groups are lobbying WV senators to manipulate census data for their own ends.

Second, that a group is lobbying to have Clarksburg not included in the Morgantown MSA.

Third, that a senator who would represent 1% of the senate in voting power could get this done.

All these things are possible, but it strikes me as improbable.

I actually agree that Clarksburg should be included with Morgantown, BUT I would find the fault with the flawed census system and not some conspiracy against Morgantown.
 
Old 05-31-2013, 10:17 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cry_havoc View Post
That is still relying on three very big and unfounded assumptions.

First, that groups are lobbying WV senators to manipulate census data for their own ends.

Second, that a group is lobbying to have Clarksburg not included in the Morgantown MSA.

Third, that a senator who would represent 1% of the senate in voting power could get this done.

All these things are possible, but it strikes me as improbable.

I actually agree that Clarksburg should be included with Morgantown, BUT I would find the fault with the flawed census system and not some conspiracy against Morgantown.
Well, I certainly have no proof that this is the case, but to me it is perfectly logical to assume that is the case. If you pay attention to Clarksburg's political climate, you will notice their obviously contrarian actions. And, how would you explain the sudden shift of counties from Charleston to Huntington when little has changed in either place? Don't think for a minute the Census Bureau (headed by a person appointed by the administration) wouldn't be sensitive to a strong suggestion from the administration, and don't think the administration wouldn't listen to a senator or two.

In government, when the big boss says crap, you will see a hundred agency heads with their pants hitting the floor.
 
Old 05-31-2013, 10:34 PM
 
6,347 posts, read 9,842,103 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CTMountaineer View Post
Well, I certainly have no proof that this is the case, but to me it is perfectly logical to assume that is the case. If you pay attention to Clarksburg's political climate, you will notice their obviously contrarian actions. And, how would you explain the sudden shift of counties from Charleston to Huntington when little has changed in either place? Don't think for a minute the Census Bureau (headed by a person appointed by the administration) wouldn't be sensitive to a strong suggestion from the administration, and don't think the administration wouldn't listen to a senator or two.

In government, when the big boss says crap, you will see a hundred agency heads with their pants hitting the floor.
It actually is not very logical.

You are assuming that WV senators are using their power and influence to carry out a secret agenda by Clarksburg.

You are right the census bureau will revise all their methodology based on the will of the organization which is controlled by politicians, and we have seen proof of that by a poster who shall not be named, BUT I dont see why the Obama administration, any of the big political parties, or DC bureaucrats would care about Clarksburg.

You are not wrong in Morgantown-Clarksburg not being counted as an area is stupid. However, the way you came to that conclusion is where I find fault with your logic. The answer is much more simple. The census bureau is an organization that makes up fake designations based off arbitrary non-consistent ever changing criteria and methodologies. Morgantown has a big population of non-permanent residents and students who could care less about filling out the census. However, the ACTUAL REAL number of people living in this area cannot be manipulated by these people.
 
Old 05-31-2013, 10:45 PM
 
10,147 posts, read 14,988,188 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cry_havoc View Post
It actually is not very logical.

You are assuming that WV senators are using their power and influence to carry out a secret agenda by Clarksburg.

You are right the census bureau will revise all their methodology based on the will of the organization which is controlled by politicians, and we have seen proof of that by a poster who shall not be named, BUT I dont see why the Obama administration, any of the big political parties, or DC bureaucrats would care about Clarksburg.

You are not wrong in Morgantown-Clarksburg not being counted as an area is stupid. However, the way you came to that conclusion is where I find fault with your logic. The answer is much more simple. The census bureau is an organization that makes up fake designations based off arbitrary non-consistent ever changing criteria and methodologies. Morgantown has a big population of non-permanent residents and students who could care less about filling out the census. However, the ACTUAL REAL number of people living in this area cannot be manipulated by these people.
Clarksburg's agenda is not at all secret. They have long sought autonomy, and as a population center they want to yield as much influence in our area as possible. They want to pull people their way instead of seeing them come ours. That's why they have their own airport, and why they fought against our baseball stadium to favor one they want to build there. That place is being run by a bunch of old geezers who are strongly tied to the state's one party system, and they have disproportionate influence in political matters. They still lose much of the time due to pure demographics, but I really don't think they have any serious opposition in the MSA department. Morgantown is growing as fast as it can in any case, and an MSA designation has little importance here.

As you said, the census bureau is an organization that makes up fake designations based off arbitrary non-consistent ever changing criteria. Isn't it logical that if they can do that, they will use one criteria rather than another if pushed to do so by superiors? If Clarksburg really says it wan't its own designation, and uses it's influence to seek that, and if there is really no opposition to that stance, it is perfectly logical that it will happen just that way.
 
Old 06-01-2013, 12:13 AM
 
Location: The Heart of Dixie
10,121 posts, read 15,804,433 times
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Yes I've read that if WVU's student population is included, that would make it the biggest city in the state. However I don't know if that would make the entire Morgantown metro area larger than the Charleston metro area. The Morgantown area is very large if you include Clarksburg and Fairmont which are basically connected to Morgantown.

Also according to Wikipedia the Huntington area is the largest metro area in the state, even larger than Charleston, though I don't know if that includes the portions of the Huntington area located in Ohio and Kentucky. And Wikipedia says Teays Valley and Hurricane are part of the Huntington metro even though most people there seem to commute to Charleston, not Huntington.
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