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Old 05-09-2017, 10:24 PM
 
10,148 posts, read 13,089,689 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GottaHerdOn View Post
Morgantown is literally on the border of PA. While it is lumped with NC WV more often than not, it is the fringe of the north central area. I'm not talking about the Pittsburgh area (the bulk of that 1.2 you mentioned). I'm talking about WV. Once Corridor H is completed it will be a more direct route east for everything south of the Saltwell/Shinston exit compared to driving to I-68, including US 50 which would only be 20 miles to Corridor H on I-79 versus 29 miles to I-68 also directly connecting Parkersburg and east-central Ohio. I know your affinity to Morgantown and yes Monongalia County is growing but it goes back to my comment with... we've got ours now and now we're growing so we deserve it all.

Other parts of West Virginia are growing too and I don't agree with or understand only focusing on one small part of the state for growth. We have to focus on growing and fixing the WHOLE state. I don't agree with that mindset of only focusing on select areas that are currently experiencing growth when even those area have smaller populations as compared to the past with populations they should have, as we have seen over the last 50-60 years populations can change drastically. Monongalia has greatly benefited from I-68 and I-79 and to say that other regional hubs do not deserve what was promised to them from federal money to open up their areas is rather sophomoric. Which is the problem with many in our state leadership positions that I've posed to my students to address. We nor only have to overcome the state reps to benefit WV, we also have to change the mindset of many of our residents who are archaic in their beliefs.

This post is also not meant to be hijacked by people subversively promoting one area. My question was for how to fix the state as a whole. Please stay on topic.
Indeed... you have been supporting one area as much as anybody. The meat of NCWV runs Monongalia, Marion, Harrison. Those 3 counties have close to 200,000 residents alone (combined), and geographically (again combined) they are about the same size as Kanawha. Just because Mon County borders PA, does not mean it is any less relevant than any other county. Cabell borders Ohio and Kentucky, and nobody would suggest it is a fringe area due to that. I'm not supporting just our county. I'm suggesting that expanding I-68 would have a bigger impact than Corridor H. It is within the proximity of the bulk of the population of NCWV. The fringe areas ... Barbour, etc. are much smaller in size. If you go south of Bridgeport/Anmoore, there is scant population until you go 130 miles to the fringe areas of Charleston. Buckhannon and Elkins together have around 34,000 total, spread out, and they are already connected to I-79.

If you are talking about growing areas ... right now there are only two. The Eastern Panhandle and NCWV. Even Putnam County lost a small amount of population with the most recent estimates, and until recently, that was the only southern tier county to have gains. But since you are talking about finding ways to make all parts of the state grow. My contention is it will take infrastructure in the northern and eastern areas, and a shift of paradigms in the southern areas. There is no one size fits all solution. We really have 5 little states in one here in West Virginia, and the needs of the various areas are vastly different from one another. I'm sorry if you believe it sophomoric to have a different opinion than your own, but if you just want people to agree with you, why would you posit the question?
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Old 05-09-2017, 10:39 PM
 
10,148 posts, read 13,089,689 times
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I stand corrected. The combined population of Mon, Marion, and Harrison is 232,000, not 200,000. Bridgeport WV is about the same distance from I-68 as it is Corridor H, but all the population north of Bridgeport is closer to I-68.

I'm not against completing Corridor H. I just believe that in terms of doing the most for the state, the greatest demonstrated infrastructure needs are in the northern areas right now. That is especially true when you consider the oil and gas developments in that region, and the new cracker across the river from Moundsville.

Last edited by CTMountaineer; 05-09-2017 at 10:48 PM..
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Old 05-10-2017, 12:11 AM
 
778 posts, read 557,132 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnNada View Post
The second attempt at the regional airport never took off because it turned into a swindle thanks to corrupt southern WV politicians coming through again to do what they do best by making sure that any attempt at actually allowing prosperity and growth to happen does not occur.

And I'm not sure where the revisionist history comes from on this subject but once again let's clear the air.

In the 1990's attempt this airport was going to be built most likely near Confidence WV or Evergreen Church. Both are in Putnam County. This airport was going to serve Huntington, Charleston and Parkersburg. Not sure why people leave out Parkersburg when they rehash this saga...

Anyhow some half-brained last minute proposal was put out there to put the Airport in Lincoln county of all places. At that point Parkersburg says see-ya and Charleston was basically hold off wait a minute what's going on here?

So instead of having a truly regional airport with a bypass from 77 to 64, and access to the semi usable land of northern Putnam and Jackson counties we are at where we are at today because once again corruption rules the roost in WV.



The reason Midway died was not for the reasons you are stating John, although it is what nearly most believe. I dislike being on opposite sides of any topic with you, but on this one it was economics and precedence that drove the decision to half further work on the project.


These projects of regional shared hub airports with cargo centers had already been tried in other areas of the country since the early 1980s. All of them failed to deliver on their forecast and most of them had to be transformed to break even. None has been a success and 2 of them have been closed completely.


The FAA was not really ready to pursue another such facility in a state that has even less upside than some place in Illinois of North Carolina. Economically the whole thing had no future.


But, it did not stop all of the land speculation going on in the possible locations. There were many that swooped in, bought up cheap land and stupidly cheap prices and then sat on it waiting for the government to come in and offer fair market value based on the value of the land as it was projected as an airport. They would get stinking rich overnight and the taxpayer would be footing the bill.


The entire concept geographically made no sense either. No one that wants to make a serious flight goes to Wood County, Clarksburg or Tri-State because those are nothing more than glorified commuter puddle jumper airports with a large civie base. You want to fly you go to a regional airport - Charleston, Columbus, Pittsburgh, maybe even Lexington. People in Beckley only drive to Charleston and people in the eastern panhandle all take the 1 hour drive and go to Dulles.


Midway is a nice concept but that is all it ever was. It failed all of the means testing - economic, geographic and risk.
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Old 05-10-2017, 04:44 AM
 
436 posts, read 323,771 times
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Midway was the 1960's version of a regional airport. I don't really have any inside knowledge about that concept.

The 1990's concept was "Transpark". I do have some info on that one.

Here's a link with some good information around pages 32 - 35. Politics killed this thing when they pulled a fast one for Lincoln County. There's some good info regarding Wood County in this document. They knew they were getting screwed so they did what they had to do. Kanawha County did the same. Had Craigo and the crew not meddled in this I firmly believe that there would be a new airport in Evergreen Church with a connector from I-77 to I-64 running by it in existence today. And I think it is important for people to know this because over time Yeager and Charleston get the blame for this not happening and it is absolutely false.

Now Midway I do blame on Charleston for not happening back in the 1960's.

http://www.kanawha.us/documents/minu...%209-11-03.doc
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Old 05-10-2017, 10:01 AM
 
778 posts, read 557,132 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnNada View Post
Midway was the 1960's version of a regional airport. I don't really have any inside knowledge about that concept.

The 1990's concept was "Transpark". I do have some info on that one.

Here's a link with some good information around pages 32 - 35. Politics killed this thing when they pulled a fast one for Lincoln County. There's some good info regarding Wood County in this document. They knew they were getting screwed so they did what they had to do. Kanawha County did the same. Had Craigo and the crew not meddled in this I firmly believe that there would be a new airport in Evergreen Church with a connector from I-77 to I-64 running by it in existence today. And I think it is important for people to know this because over time Yeager and Charleston get the blame for this not happening and it is absolutely false.

Now Midway I do blame on Charleston for not happening back in the 1960's.

www.kanawha.us/documents/minutes/.../PORT%20AUTHORITY%209-11-03.doc


The concept has had many names over the years and you must wonder why that is. Well, it is that way because when the concept dies under one name, the promoters repackage it and call it something else hoping that this time their idea will stick. Exhibit A is Global Warming; a concept has had many names.


It is also a given that studies, especially those done by or for local agencies, are almost universally stilted to produce an outcome the buyer wants to see.


I agree Yeager and Charleston was not to blame, although to those that owned now worthless - or very nearly so - property in the target areas, they certainly thought Charleston was to blame because Yeager Airport benefitted from the results. What drove the end of the concept was as I stated, economics, geographic concerns and the fact that every time a "transpark" was tried it failed.


Wood and Cabell counties were being asked to put their tax incomes to work in another county and Kanawha was going to not only put its tax income to work in another county it was also going to lose a tax resource - a double whammy! Then there is the additional impact of the state and Federal government having to come in and build up the connector that has no other need. All of this would have produce an airport with no more traffic than is already present at Yeager. The economics simply did not exist.
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Old 05-10-2017, 10:10 AM
 
5,721 posts, read 4,979,017 times
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The only way it can be fixed is by not relying on the energy industry. Until people get this through their thick skull nothing will change. and guys like Justice are a complete waste of time and just another homegrown good ole boy, corporate croney.
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Old 05-10-2017, 11:54 AM
 
Location: Cumberland
5,443 posts, read 8,748,269 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CTMountaineer View Post
Indeed... you have been supporting one area as much as anybody. The meat of NCWV runs Monongalia, Marion, Harrison. Those 3 counties have close to 200,000 residents alone (combined), and geographically (again combined) they are about the same size as Kanawha. Just because Mon County borders PA, does not mean it is any less relevant than any other county. Cabell borders Ohio and Kentucky, and nobody would suggest it is a fringe area due to that. I'm not supporting just our county. I'm suggesting that expanding I-68 would have a bigger impact than Corridor H. It is within the proximity of the bulk of the population of NCWV. The fringe areas ... Barbour, etc. are much smaller in size. If you go south of Bridgeport/Anmoore, there is scant population until you go 130 miles to the fringe areas of Charleston. Buckhannon and Elkins together have around 34,000 total, spread out, and they are already connected to I-79.

If you are talking about growing areas ... right now there are only two. The Eastern Panhandle and NCWV. Even Putnam County lost a small amount of population with the most recent estimates, and until recently, that was the only southern tier county to have gains. But since you are talking about finding ways to make all parts of the state grow. My contention is it will take infrastructure in the northern and eastern areas, and a shift of paradigms in the southern areas. There is no one size fits all solution. We really have 5 little states in one here in West Virginia, and the needs of the various areas are vastly different from one another. I'm sorry if you believe it sophomoric to have a different opinion than your own, but if you just want people to agree with you, why would you posit the question?

I am going to offer an opinion too....the state of WV is amazingly uniform in terms of need when compared to ANY of their neighboring states. Think about it. You guys don't have to worry about being a small part of Appalachia in a state full of big diverse urban areas, flat farm oriented land, expansive rich suburbs. That is the reality in nearly all the Eastern Seaboard states, and I will say from example that these different mindsets, attitudes, and realities have much less in common than the difference between Morgantown and Charleston, or rural Mineral County and rural Mingo County.

The fight for resources creates perceived points of difference that are bandied about in an attempt to justify denying your neighbor to get to your own, but from my perspective ALL of WV has the following important issues that the effects the entire state.

- Transition to a post industrial economy
- Lack of infrastructure like roads, mass transit, etc.
- Opiate and other substance abuse crises
- lack of land suitable for easy development
- having no large urban areas that attract diversity and investment
- a population with an education level and skill set not attractive to most 21st century business

Don't consider it a slam against the state, because it isn't. It is a unique opportunity to solve Appalachian issues in a state where they are the majority concerns, not the minority concerns of one portion of the state that gets drowned out by more populous cultural regions that dictate the agenda for the whole state.
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Old 05-10-2017, 12:05 PM
 
778 posts, read 557,132 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wanderlust76 View Post
The only way it can be fixed is by not relying on the energy industry. Until people get this through their thick skull nothing will change. and guys like Justice are a complete waste of time and just another homegrown good ole boy, corporate croney.


I have really avoided the main issue of this thread because I see no winning answer to it. West Virginia's economic problems are culturally. I love West Virginia, I love everything about it and even most of the qualities of its people as they can be a wonderful niche in a crazy world. You can go any where and not meet a stranger. I am talking about people that were born and raised, not those that moved here because of work or to import drugs, but real West Virginians.


West Virginians can be very noble, generous and tender people and just as easily be filled with duty, honor and grit.


But...


They are some of the dumbest people intellectually and culturally as you will ever meet.


It is the Celtic clannish heritage that threads its way into our West Virginia lineage. We distrust everyone if they don't live next door. While we are nice to others we think of anyone not from "our holler" as an outsider. So stupid.


When a high school students tells mom and dad they want to go to college - even in state, the reaction of the parents in those rural communities is, "Do you think you are better than us?!?!?!"


When you have that sort of environment in common across the state between all rural families one must weep for the intellectual future of the whole state.


The people that eventually do get a job - always through nepotism - it is usually with the state, because if you work for the state, you really do not do any work, get a fat paycheck - relative to other West Virginians - superb insurance for you and your family and a big fat retirement - all for doing nothing, mostly.


There are other fields to obtain employment but they mirror the government sector, mostly medical or legal and what used to be coal. They are all one stop jobs, meaning you get in and you ride it until you retire. Another set of industries where you don't have to produce much. More than in the government but not that much more.


Then we have the elite academia idiots otherwise known as the education system and college professors of West Virginia. Again, all entitled people feeling like life owes them and if not life, at least the tax payer via the government. West Virginia has 3 or 4 dozen colleges and universities and it needs ONE. There is not even any need for Marshall; all of it should be under WVU and almost every single campus should be closed across the state. Tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars wasted every year!


The last major working group are those in the service industry, usually working 1.5 jobs and dreaming of the day they can get the hell of this state!


Everyone else is on welfare, Medicaid, HUD and food stamps, laying back on the sofa, watching their big screens, playing with their consoles, driving rather nice cars and often, doing a decent amount of recreational drugs and all of them are F A T asses and speak English one level above caveman. You know them, the kind that wear florescent sweatpants and flip-flops to Walmart.


So what is wrong with West Virginia - West Virginians and no one is going to fix that.
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Old 05-10-2017, 05:00 PM
 
Location: Cumberland
5,443 posts, read 8,748,269 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caden Grace View Post
I have really avoided the main issue of this thread because I see no winning answer to it. West Virginia's economic problems are culturally. I love West Virginia, I love everything about it and even most of the qualities of its people as they can be a wonderful niche in a crazy world. You can go any where and not meet a stranger. I am talking about people that were born and raised, not those that moved here because of work or to import drugs, but real West Virginians.


West Virginians can be very noble, generous and tender people and just as easily be filled with duty, honor and grit.


But...


They are some of the dumbest people intellectually and culturally as you will ever meet.


It is the Celtic clannish heritage that threads its way into our West Virginia lineage. We distrust everyone if they don't live next door. While we are nice to others we think of anyone not from "our holler" as an outsider. So stupid.


When a high school students tells mom and dad they want to go to college - even in state, the reaction of the parents in those rural communities is, "Do you think you are better than us?!?!?!"


When you have that sort of environment in common across the state between all rural families one must weep for the intellectual future of the whole state.


The people that eventually do get a job - always through nepotism - it is usually with the state, because if you work for the state, you really do not do any work, get a fat paycheck - relative to other West Virginians - superb insurance for you and your family and a big fat retirement - all for doing nothing, mostly.


There are other fields to obtain employment but they mirror the government sector, mostly medical or legal and what used to be coal. They are all one stop jobs, meaning you get in and you ride it until you retire. Another set of industries where you don't have to produce much. More than in the government but not that much more.


Then we have the elite academia idiots otherwise known as the education system and college professors of West Virginia. Again, all entitled people feeling like life owes them and if not life, at least the tax payer via the government. West Virginia has 3 or 4 dozen colleges and universities and it needs ONE. There is not even any need for Marshall; all of it should be under WVU and almost every single campus should be closed across the state. Tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars wasted every year!


The last major working group are those in the service industry, usually working 1.5 jobs and dreaming of the day they can get the hell of this state!


Everyone else is on welfare, Medicaid, HUD and food stamps, laying back on the sofa, watching their big screens, playing with their consoles, driving rather nice cars and often, doing a decent amount of recreational drugs and all of them are F A T asses and speak English one level above caveman. You know them, the kind that wear florescent sweatpants and flip-flops to Walmart.


So what is wrong with West Virginia - West Virginians and no one is going to fix that.
So when you can't fix something, you do your best to mitigate it. Here are some ways.

1. When you promote your state to tourists, potential businesses, and prospective residents, you have to do it with your (and their) eyes wide open. Anyone who can't tolerate seeing people out in PJ pants, or have their ears offended by non-standard English dialects won't make it for long. Weed those people out from the very start, because you are right, they will not be happy living in Appalachia.

2. Promote good middle class neighborhoods (or better) to new residents. Be sure to point out that a 30k house sounds like a real bargain, but you get what you pay for. Don't get sucked into thinking because nearly all housing is "cheap" compared to most of the rest of the country that price point doesn't matter. It does.

3. Promote private schools. This is a personal choice, but in poor communities with low acheiving public schools, it is really the only choice for a person who wants their kids to be in an environment where intelligence is valued and success is expected. Again, don't let well meaning people assume "Oh, we really support public education, so we are sure young Victoria and Brock will be just fine in the local high school, it will be a good experience for them." No, it probably won't be. Do everything in your power to prevent people from setting themselves up to fail.

Long term, if you attract/create enough residents that value education and cultural experiences, you hit critical mass where public schools improve, people know more about the outside world, etc. But you need those pioneers to set down roots first and/or keep you best and brightest in-state.

Again, none of this is a meant as a knock on WV. I live in Western Maryland, born and raised, and I know what it took for me to live in the hometown I love. As a person who values education and married a women from the D.C. metro, we have to mitigate the worst our community has to offer by making solid choices concerning schools and neighborhood and surrounding ourselves with the like-minded, even if we are few. It has worked very well so far, and no, I don't mind non-standard English or seeing people out in their PJs, I just can't deal with it 24/7.
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Old 05-10-2017, 09:48 PM
 
1,155 posts, read 525,289 times
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I have to agree that some of the problem is cultural and I don't think that part is fixable. Others stated it well. I was born here but my parents who weren't didn't necessarily fit in and nothing has changed in that regard in 50+ years. People are truly proud of their mountain heritage here; much of which involves living off the land, purposefully being isolated, etc. Even WVU's Mountaineer mascot reflects that.

This is just the predominant mindset here and I accept it. I don't agree with all of it but experience has caused me to question the motives of trying to change it. It would be like me moving to New Mexico (using this as an example as it's another poor state) and trying to change the culture and the people there. It would make more sense to settle in a place that I accept for what it is.

This topic about the economy comes up a lot. I just wanted to throw out another opinion. I have to wonder if many have considered that the rural nature of our state happens to attract people who aren't all that interested in the economy. The rural parts around me are a haven for homesteaders, people who want to live "off the grid", militia types and even doomsday "preppers". A lot moved from other states TO live as isolated as they possibly could.

One other factor that should be considered is our weather is just not attractive. That's not changing either. https://www.currentresults.com/Weath.../cloudiest.php
Elkins WV is tied for 4th in the nation for rainiest cities in the US. The 10 Worst Weather Cities - Farmers' Almanac
Seattle of course has more rain but has very mild winters which we don't. These are big factors that people consider on where to locate. There are plenty of people I know who were raised here and had good opportunities but left for Florida or California just for better weather.

I have learned to tolerate the gloominess here even though I find it depressing. But this got me thinking; To "me" there are worse places. Personally, I am afraid of storms and you couldn't pay me any amount of money to live in tornado alley. (Literally, if my salary doubled I wouldn't move there). Sadly, many people feel the same way about WV for lots of reasons - the hick stereotype #1 - and I think that there are many executives of companies saying this about our state when it comes up for a prospect to locate to: "No way, you couldn't PAY me to live there".

Last edited by motownnative; 05-10-2017 at 10:11 PM..
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