environmentalists and coal can work it out? (Washington, Rupert: real estate, 2009)

[David Kennedy]

GraniteStater's comment surely must be a joke...the coal generated power sent into California comes from Utah, New Mexico and Colorado...and those coal fired plants collect all the particulate matter...

Particulate matter, btw, is smoke particles...smoke particles are about 4 micron in size...

[CTMountaineer]

Originally Posted by GraniteStater

Think how much worse the air quality in California would be if they burned a lot of coal to generate electricity. They are one of the few states that has no coal plants operating at all within its borders!

The only reason California doesn't have any coal plants is it is not
economically feasible to locate them there... too far away from the resources.

By the way, I live in Connecticut and really the only part of NH I have spent much time in is the Hampton area. Does NH do much better than CT in terms of infrastructure to use natural gas, or like CT do they burn millions of gallons of oil each year for home heating? Oil usage in the Northeast is far worse than in most of the country and is actually a significantly worse source of pollution than coal fired power plants, which are doing an ever better job of doing away with the particulates.

One thing I have discovered though. You can NEVER make an environmentalist wacko happy. They absolutely have to have something to whine and complain about. I think it is because most of them are liberals and it just goes with the turf, but nothing is ever good enough. Solve the particulant issue and they will jump to carbon dioxide or something else. Never mind the fact that plants actually need the CO2 to survive, and more "global warming" is created by a single vulcanic eruption than by all the coal fired plants taken together.

[harborlady]

Originally Posted by vec101

Did you see on the news this AM -
In Southern Cal, air pollution is killing more people than car wrecks. Report says they have the worst air pollution in the country and they are not meeting fed standards for ozone and fine particles -.
they are the top violators of the federal Clean Air Act. The area is the hub of manufacturing, shipping, entertainment and agriculture. More than half the state's population lives in the area.

Hey environmentalists - go pick on Cal and leave us alone!!!!!

Dirty SoCal Air Deadlier Than Car Crashes?, Study: Lowering Air Pollution Would Save More Lives Annually Than Ending All Car Fatalities - CBS News
Bad air costing state's economy billions

California has gone to pains to address the issue and manifest answers with their decisions through legislation and their own $$$$. Their decisions were overturned by executive interference through judicial arm. Guess who was in office at the time? Hint- not obama, not clinton. The guy who sold himself as laissez fair, no big gov't, let states decide for themselves.

WV's getting some wind power settups, I think that's as important as california helping itself to with sunshine- http://www.nrel.gov/csp/troughnet/po...t_systems.html Neither solution will solve all things, but it's a step in the right direction. Right now if hydro power from kanawha river were harvested, it would be enough to cover charleston and beyond. Who gets hurt upriver, or downriver- we can't ignore that reality.

California isn't against WV, and WV shouldn't be against California.

Originally Posted by CTMountaineer

Environmentalist wack jobs need to get real and work to help solve the problem... not be obstructionist. Money needs to be seriously invested to make use of our Nation's most abundant energy resource in a clean manner, not only to stop dependence on foreign sources, all of which have shown a tendency to extort consessions from us in exchange for oil, but to stop the assault on the value of our money.

Many of those same "environmentalists" are actually participating in far more harmful practices than burning coal for electricity. In the Northeast, for example, they refuse to invest in adequate infrastructure to protect the environment (something that midwestern and southern areas habitually do). Many areas use heating oil for heat, a fossil fuel, because they are too cheap to invest in natural gas infrastructure. As a result, millions of gallons of oil are burned into the atmosphere and billions of dollars are sent out of the American economy. They also routinely use septic tanks, even in good sized towns, rather than properly treat ground water. Yet these same bozos whine and cry about a power plant in Ohio that is allowing them to use electricity instead of lamp oil.

Research is the answer, not punitive measures that would make American business even less competitive. Investment to follow the research in a massive manner should be the order of the decade.
That includes Northeasterners getting their own house in order by making their markets readily available for natural gas, and saving their residents thousands every year in heating costs in the process.

Mountaintop Removal is NOT the answer, however. Causing permanent damage to our beautiful mountains just to make a quick buck is inexcusable. Mine the stuff in the traditional manner, or leave it alone.

Mostly I agree with what you've said, just didn't care for how you've chosen to characterize folks. Obstructionism is also a dinosaur tearing down a solar panel that was paid for already.

Bottom line- we're all in the same boat. There is potential for tremendous strides in technology but not without serious investment into R&D. Even as is today- information available is scattered far and wide, duplication of efforts abounds, any attempts to put anything in public eye is attacked by another version of extremism that wants to keep status quo. The technology that has been discovered isn't readily available to ordinary consumers with exception of hybrids. People are not aware of where their dinner comes from in civilization, and that education FROM rural folks TO citified folks really needs to happen. I've been in both worlds and see it all too clearly. To continue on with tactics of blame detracts from what's legit in technology, the education we all need to further, and keeps everyone stuck on stupid. Folks like me are stuck on stupid in the middle and would rather move the conference away from ego games/sibling rivalry.

Northeasterners on long island were encouraged by electric company (formerly LILCO now Keyspan) to refit their homes with natural gas, only to have the price of natural gas spike beyond the price of oil. So goes the commodities market fluctuations on wall street/global influence/ out of our means to control. Want to sell it for real, you'd have to have people who made that significant investment not have egg on their face for doing so. Similarly with technologies like geothermal, solar or wind- if they don't tell the truth about the real downsides, don't deliver what was promised, or can't get to market something within peoples means to own, it won't happen. 30% of the population doesn't make enough to be taxed, and 95% make less than 250k per yr. Pricing things out within peoples means will determine participation. Everything we have as options has downsides, and upsides. The current problem is disinformation getting in the way through political steering.

I think the real place to start as a nation reformulating an energy policy that's outlived it's useful purpose is to clearly present to the public facts and costs involved using a dispassionate presentation with the objective of informed consent. Then each state can measure it's assets not only in terms of coal, gas, oil, nuke, but the viability of all other renewables to augment their increasing energy needs. Then let the people vote where the best bang for research $$ will be devoted. From that springboard, states who invest mutually in one thing can double their chance of success if they pool their brain power. A state like Montana has a stake in seeing coal do it's best just like Pa and WV. I think it would achieve a much smoother transition and revitilize multiple economies steadily with johnny appleseed policy not limited to apples, but diversity. Eventually the better technologies will prove themselves out as most or least cost effective regionally, resulting in greater affordability for all when mass manufacture has committed volume customers.

I also think Europeans and Asians have exceeded us in these technologies already, and we should humbly be doing homework overseas (cost efficacy of what's pre existing there will spare us costly mistakes).

[David Kennedy]

The 1. item on the Eco-Freak Agenda is to MAKE IT COST A LOT...got it in college from the 'nutty professors...Began in the 70's with the cirriculum...

Those colleges are not called 'Liberal Arts for nothing...Liberal Far*ts would be closer...

One old codger/coot professor, still driving the Mantra/Manifesto at age 74 said to me..."I went to Washington to the protest and couldn't even get arrested...how times have changed..."

[GottaHerdOn]

Originally Posted by David Kennedy

The 1. item on the Eco-Freak Agenda is to MAKE IT COST A LOT...got it in college from the 'nutty professors...Began in the 70's with the cirriculum...

Those colleges are not called 'Liberal Arts for nothing...Liberal Far*ts would be closer...

One old codger/coot professor, still driving the Mantra/Manifesto at age 74 said to me..."I went to Washington to the protest and couldn't even get arrested...how times have changed..."

He wasn't doing it correctly then...

[harborlady]

Oh hogwwash DK. It's not a deliberate thing they're doing. It's their own ignorance about how commerce works, how money is made, that makes them convinced their solutions are all that and a bag of chips. Equal time for commerce, if you aren't including the mess you make into your math, the true cost of doing business by your method isn't telling the truth.

Example elsewhere- chemical plant on genessee river Rochester NY using that river as an administrative control of pollution via dumping into it because it's more cost effective to pay the fine than have a reality based plan. Too many employeed by that company in that town to rock the boat. They daily shot themselves in the foot. Also look at history of Ashtabula OH, and the decades of work to lift themselves up and out of that crippling history.

Stand above the fray, let all things be weighed and stand on merits equally. Anyone talking a hate on coal will get grief from me same as greenies who need math lessons.

Lies-- after I just spent the time to point them out twice-- you add to them? You hate coal. You defend coal. Do you have any idea what WV sounds like to the outside world? Wanting a different result from history, you have the option to do things differently present tense.

[GraniteStater]

Originally Posted by David Kennedy

GraniteStater's comment surely must be a joke...the coal generated power sent into California comes from Utah, New Mexico and Colorado...and those coal fired plants collect all the particulate matter...

Particulate matter, btw, is smoke particles...smoke particles are about 4 micron in size...

In my prior comment I was not referring to other states besides CA. Yes, CA gets a lot of its electricity from coal plants in the Desert Southwest, Utah, etc. It actually is quite wasteful to get electricity from coal at such long distances because a lot of electricity is lost through long distance transmission lines.
However, California has always been a leader in energy efficiency which is a great way to reduce overall electricity consumption. A mild climate helps, but other utilities in other states could emphasize better energy efficiency programs.

[Zea mays]

Most of the posters here confuse particulate matter and acid rain pollution with CO2 emissions. The former can be controlled by filters, scrubbers, etc.; the latter cannot. (At least not at the present time; some scandinavian researchers are experimenting pumping CO2 to deep ocean in the arctic, but it is still very experimental. No CO2 has ever been sequestered in deep earth, as far as I know.)

A number of northeastern states trade and sell CO2 emission levels among power companies. Similar cap and trade laws have been in effect in the EU since the early part of this decade. The physics of the matter is, because of the chemical structure of fuel, natural gas emits the least amount of CO2 per BTU, oil releases more CO2, but coal releases the most of all. And of course, nuclear plants emit no CO2 whatsoever. Coal really has no long-term future as nations start taking global warming seriously.

E.P.A. Decision Signals Trouble for Coal; New York Times, 14 Nov 2008 (Read the comments following the article also.)

EPA Ruling on Coal Levels Playing Field for Wind, Solar; Wired Science, 14 Nov 2008

Clean Coal is No Quick Fix; The Toronto Star, 10 Nov 2008 (Read the comments following this article as well.)

[David Kennedy]

Co2 is only a 'Therotical Problem...It will COST A LOT TO FREEZE AND CONTAIN and that is what the Eco-freaks are counting on...

HEY! Our country is bankrupt now...the battle is over...When you bankrupt the biggest job producers with regulation and interference, it eventually trickles down and caves in the country...

I particular like it when the media mills generate a story... send it through a rag like the Toronto Star and then it comes to us as factual...sent by the owner, Rupert Murdock to his other papers...

here is the hoax...the Dumbing of America has suceeded too...no one can read...so the 'Talking Heads tell us what we should believe..

HB: Coal Mine Management is right out of the 1890's...killing the men and paying the bribes...
It's about time for one of our big mines to explode...been a while over here..
90 hrs a week at forced overtime is a little like the Chinese...and the money? A little over 100k...after taxes about $1500 a week...

GHO: The 'Nutty Prof was too old...and the DC protesters only numbered about 100...not enough for the police to be troubled about...He was there in the 60's when the girls were ripe and gave it away at the Lincoln reflecting pool...Now, they were old hags...a bubble was burst, for sure..memories!

[harborlady]

Originally Posted by Zea mays

Most of the posters here confuse particulate matter and acid rain pollution with CO2 emissions. The former can be controlled by filters, scrubbers, etc.; the latter cannot. (At least not at the present time; some scandinavian researchers are experimenting pumping CO2 to deep ocean in the arctic, but it is still very experimental. No CO2 has ever been sequestered in deep earth, as far as I know.)

A number of northeastern states trade and sell CO2 emission levels among power companies. Similar cap and trade laws have been in effect in the EU since the early part of this decade. The physics of the matter is, because of the chemical structure of fuel, natural gas emits the least amount of CO2 per BTU, oil releases more CO2, but coal releases the most of all. And of course, nuclear plants emit no CO2 whatsoever. Coal really has no long-term future as nations start taking global warming seriously.

E.P.A. Decision Signals Trouble for Coal; New York Times, 14 Nov 2008 (Read the comments following the article also.)

EPA Ruling on Coal Levels Playing Field for Wind, Solar; Wired Science, 14 Nov 2008

Clean Coal is No Quick Fix; The Toronto Star, 10 Nov 2008 (Read the comments following this article as well.)

Appreciate the links, but here's something I was talking about when it comes to liberals doing math and the options they don't consider in the bigger picture.
WV as a state has assets and a limited economy. Try as they may, economic diversity has had difficulty taking root solidly so that their economy didn't revolve around what a coal company's plan for today happens to be. Until that transition is completely made, you risk grave damage to WV and THE most significant reason why electoral votes went to republicans since Al Gore.

That said, USA is in no condition to pitch 5 million windmills up and solve all it's problems, because even renewables industry is feeling this economy. The technology needs to catch up with demand, and this will take lots of time retrofitting or replacing infrastructure to adapt. The federal government cannot declare war on coal because, in case you haven't noticed, it's what's keeping your computer juiced up as we speak. Chicago eats coal every minute of every day. Do remember all the hard working people down here making your life possible. Know they put their lives at risk to make it happen, and know how disrespectful & ungrateful you sound in this moment.

Want real solutions short term for coal, you'll have to invest in technologies that make coal cleaner for as long as coal is needed. Coal is inherently finite, many WV'rs are disturbed by mtn top removal, and WV needs to be economically prepared for the day when alternative industries take more market share. Frankly if our national economy gets overheated again they're likely to maintain the identical production rate just to keep up with demand even with renewables. Federal government putting it's money where it's mouth is helping with transitions isn't optional.

Instead of attacking our means of putting dinner on the table, the only way WV can comply with the greater global trend is if other means of making a living are developed and in place solidly before coal can be phased down. There are also vast fields of natural gas in this state that can be amplified to offset diminishment of coal production. The better solutions are compromises and phasing in/out. The worst solutions are the ham handed ones. You'd only be mimicking the Bush behavior you despise.

Obama's message is phase in/out. You personally might not have what it takes to solve these problems, but we've got no choice but to count on him and science/ technology r&d to achieve the goals that would otherwise be an unfunded mandate we legitimately can't afford. Depriving WV of hope & guaranteeing their exclusion from america's potential economy in the future is your point? Enslaving them in welfare is what they hear when you rearrange the world to suit yourself on a piece of academic paper. Think about it.

The moderates and liberals of this country will oppose environmentalists who refuse the same mercy shown Iraqi people transitioning than they do our own kin. I'm not native to WV, but this is my home by choice. These people are not, nor have they ever been, worthy of the contempt or disdain from any american. What I see is a long standing argument, dems offering contemptuous welfare without any chance for meaningful growth, republicans offering at first a chance to grow, then contempt & slander once they've earned the vote. The stage is set to make sure WV can never win when they're caught between idiots arguing over power grabs.