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I disagree with a couple points in that statement CT. How does Morgantown have more of an urban feel than Charleston or even Huntington? Chas/Hun are both much larger metropolitan areas than Morgantown at this point.
I'm not knocking Morgantown at all, but Charleston just has a bigger city environment than Mo'town. Maybe because of the prescence of government and infrastructure, but i just don't see Charleston slipping into the Kanawha River anytime soon. The housing market is really stable down here, and urban renewal is replacing factories with new Technology jobs, just not at the rate that it's taking place in NrthCen-WV.
Hi Silk... How are you? Regards to HerdGirl. Spend some time in Morgantown. The reason for the big city feel that is not felt anywhere else in the State is the cultural events and activities associated with The University. There are literally plays (including broadway plays), concerts, athletic events, and endless groups with which to be associated as well educational opportunities not found elsewhere in the State. There are more top notch restaurants there, and more coming along.
Then drive around the areas surrounding Morgantown. There is massive construction literally in every direction, even out the side roads. Research is growing by leaps and bounds as is the student population, which adds to the city feel of the place. Drive around the other cities in the State after dark and there is just not much going on. In Morgantown, traffic is heavy day and night until the early morning hours. When the students are in town (most of the year) there are 60,000 people in the city alone 24 hours and far more during the work day. It has by far the most cosmopolitan feel of any West Virginia city.
I like Charleston, and spent a lot of time there (my first wife was from Cedar Grove). My experience with the place goes back about 45 years. They built a couple big bank buildings, a large hotel, and the downtown mall in the interim. Other that that, not all that much has changed, except Stone and Thomas and some other stores closed up. The nicest thing about Charleston is the people who live there. They are great. As cities go, it doesn't really have all that much to offer other than that. Now the environment, but not the job climate, is better with the decline of some of the chemical activity nearby. It no longer smells like sulfer when you drive around there (I used to accuse my wife of passing gas whenever we drove into town).
I agree that Charleston isn't going any place any time soon. The presence of the State Government (and their infrastructure) guarantees that. But Charleston isn't having the incredible growth that Morgantown is experiencing (one of the top 6 growth regions in the Nation) and that doesn't look to change any time soon. In addition, the job growth in the area is in areas with relatively high salaries, not the typically low paying state jobs (and believe me, as a retired state worker I know all about that). They can't replace the factories in Charleston with office jobs anywhere close to fast enough to compensate for the difference, and you couldn't really compare high tech in Charleston with that in Morgantown, where more than 11,000 new jobs have been created in recent years.
Huntington used to be a nice town but not any more. It has lost its industrial base and that has really not been replaced by anything. I did read that they got a new factory with a couple hundred jobs associated, but that doesn't even come close to losses in the railroad industry and others.
I think my projection for Morgantown being the State's largest city within 15 years could be bourne out by extending the numbers. Charleston and Huntington are declining or static at best. Morgantown is having steady growth. Even if Charleston and Huntington don't lose any more the growth will overtake them, especially if the areas immediately adjacent to Morgantown, which are getting a lot of the construction, are brought into the city. Monongalia County alone will soon have 100,000 people not counting the students, and they aren't spread out over 40 miles in every direction like is the case with Kanawha. There is new construction out roads like Van Voorhis for thousands of people who will be working the new jobs in Morgantown and Fairmont, as well as the new federal prison being built in the Kingwood area and the new power plant in Monongalia County.
You can't go on the standard "Metropolitan Area" designations. Those areas are set up in an arbitrary manner and are not uniformly designated. The Charleston Metro Area, for example, includes all of Kanawha County (very large geographically) as well as some adjacent areas. The Northcentral region of the State (Morgantown-Fairmont-Clarksburg) are classified as three different metro areas but in reality encompass the same geographic area as the Charleston metro area. The total population and area is nearly identical. The difference is in the growth rates.
Now, you could properly make the statement that Charleston has some taller buildings. That is because the two towns are of a different character. Charleston is headquarters to a couple large banks, and for some reason they built a hotel there several years ago that went up in the air more than outward. In that sense it looks larger, and you are correct in that regard. But Morgantown really has more activity. They don't want any tall buildings there, and their planning boards will not approve them. They feel it would detract from the unique character of the city. The two cities serve totally different missions and the appearances bear that out.
You can also look at the downtowns of the cities. Morgantown's is vibrant and growing just like the rest of the area. We both know what has happened with Huntington's and Charleston's isn't doing all that much better according to what I have been reading. The downtown mall is on the decline and there is not a lot of new business activity to replace it. That is a scenario typical of similar small towns all over the State... Morgantown is just fortunate in that regard. When you go there for a football game, take some time to go downtown and see the activity.
You could also point to Marshall University as being part of the dynamic in Huntington but remember, most Marshall students are commuters while most WVU students reside there. That fact causes different results in the two cities.
Remember, you can't always judge a book by its cover so to speak. The nearest town of any size to me (Danbury, CT ... a small town of about 78,000 residents) doesn't have any tall buildings either. It is mostly a bedroom community for New York City, but it has a much larger population than Charleston. It also has more business activity and is much more active, especially after work hours.
Last edited by CTMountaineer; 10-30-2008 at 12:57 AM..
Trying to do what, make sure facts and correct numbers are used and to quiet unintelligent posts like CT "Mountaineer" made? I'd say we're doing more than trying. All joking aside, I've never understood people trying to tear down another WV town or university and exaggerate things in an attempt to make their own town or university sound better. To give facts, experiences and opinions is one thing, but to post crap like that(what CTM posted) is ridiculous to say the least. Be proud of your area, show off its assets and defend it but remember that we're all part of the same state and we all benefit from the growth of the state as long as no misguided political workings get in the way (i.e. the new Fairmont exit or pulling funding from one area/entity to pay for pet projects). This state needs to encourage growth and friendly competition rather than making people feel like they have to fight like dogs for the scraps left at the table. The people who brag like it would be a good thing for WV to have one large thriving city, university or anything need to get a life and realize what they are asking for. I want to see this state and all of it's cities grow and prosper and we can't get there with that kind of attitude.
Excuse me, but just how is my post "unintelligent"? I didn't tear down anything or anyone. If anything is standing in the way of progress in the state, it is the political workings going on in the southern portion, not at the Fairmont exit. There is good reason for the State to spend money there... there is growth taking place. By building the infrastructure the state builds its tax base benefiting everyone. In areas that are not experiencing growth the same can not be said.
With Morgantown and Northcentral's growth, the entire State does benefit. It is only localized bickering and jealousy that stands in the way of even greater progress. I agree with you that it would be better if every town in the State were to grow and prosper. Maybe if growth is encouraged in those areas where the demand is clearly present, the benefits attained there can spread to other areas in the State. Unfortunately, the State has a bad habit of throwing good money at bad, and putting efforts in areas where the demand really isn't taking place.
My comments that the state only has one MAJOR university are based on the obvious. That is nothing against the other institutions in the state which have different missions and are not intended to be major. The state can not afford more than one major university, and doesn't have the population to support more than one. Therefore it has one major, national, doctoral institution, a regional one, and several localized ones. They are all good schools... one isn't any better than the next, but they serve different missions.
Northcentral and Martinsburg ARE the only growing areas in the State. That is not intended as being against the other areas, it is just stating the facts. I think if you were to be objective, you'd have to agree with that. Growth in any part of the state is good for the whole state. Your argument that it has to be the same everywhere is counter productive. You have to encourage it where the results will bear fruit. Then those benefits can be used to help stimulate other areas. It's like a business. If one store is getting most of the sales and has the greatest potential you do most of your promotions for that store. The profits will benefit all the stores. If you put our emphasis on stores that are losing money, you will not maximize results.
I'm originally from Wheeling, which at one time was the State's showplace. That has changed, and that city has suffered even more than Charleston and Huntington. None of that changes the fact that Morgantown and Martinsburg are having the opposite trend.
Not at all. Who opened this thread back up in the first place? It wasn't the Huntington people. We are responding to inflammatory comments made by CTM that were obviously directed at Huntington and Marshall. And then we responded to subsequent statements by you and DK in order to have a conversation rather than allow a one sided representation. How is that "making this a Huntington v. Morgantown battle royale" when we didn't start it but only respnded to what was written? You're telling me you'd let someone come on here and put down Morgantown and WVU and not respond at all? You've proven that's not true in the past. Most of us on here are passionate about where we live, sometimes to a fault. I don't think any of us would let someone come on here and make comments like that without doing a point counter-point. I'd be disappointed if we did.
Bailey, ... read my original post. I didn't even mention Marshall. You mentioned Marshall, and you are the one trying to make some kind of argument. Now, we could go into some kind of comparisons of Marshall, West Virginia, etc. but I don't think you really want to do that, do you? I meant nothing as being inflamatory. You are reading things into my statement that are not there.
For some reason, you Marshall types are extremely defensive. I'd think you'd be glad the State has a fine national university and another fine regional one. There is nothing wrong with that. For a state the size of and as poor as West Virginia, that's a pretty significant accomplishment.
How is it a pissing match? I just stated the facts. Bailey wants some kind of pissing match for some reason. I said nothing negative about Marshall. I have a degree from Marshall. Marshall is a very good regional school. I have no idea the source of his jealousy or defensiveness.
Since Bailey brought it up (I certainly wasn't going to mention it) the growth in Morgantown is demand driven. It is logically taking place because of demonstrated demand. They are attempting something entirely different in Huntington. There the demand is not present, and they are artificially trying to create it with discounted tuition rates, and rented newly constructed buildings. I truly hope they are successful, because if they are not, everyone will have to step in and pay for the mistakes... again. And, the State is not really in a position to do that these days.
Hi Silk... How are you? Regards to HerdGirl. Spend some time in Morgantown. The reason for the big city feel that is not felt anywhere else in the State is the cultural events and activities associated with The University. There are literally plays (including broadway plays), concerts, athletic events, and endless groups with which to be associated as well educational opportunities not found elsewhere in the State. There are more top notch restaurants there, and more coming along.
Then drive around the areas surrounding Morgantown. There is massive construction literally in every direction, even out the side roads. Research is growing by leaps and bounds as is the student population, which adds to the city feel of the place. Drive around the other cities in the State after dark and there is just not much going on. In Morgantown, traffic is heavy day and night until the early morning hours. When the students are in town (most of the year) there are 60,000 people in the city alone 24 hours and far more during the work day. It has by far the most cosmopolitan feel of any West Virginia city.
I like Charleston, and spent a lot of time there (my first wife was from Cedar Grove). My experience with the place goes back about 45 years. They built a couple big bank buildings, a large hotel, and the downtown mall in the interim. Other that that, not all that much has changed, except Stone and Thomas and some other stores closed up. The nicest thing about Charleston is the people who live there. They are great. As cities go, it doesn't really have all that much to offer other than that. Now the environment, but not the job climate, is better with the decline of some of the chemical activity nearby. It no longer smells like sulfer when you drive around there (I used to accuse my wife of passing gas whenever we drove into town).
I agree that Charleston isn't going any place any time soon. The presence of the State Government (and their infrastructure) guarantees that. But Charleston isn't having the incredible growth that Morgantown is experiencing (one of the top 6 growth regions in the Nation) and that doesn't look to change any time soon. In addition, the job growth in the area is in areas with relatively high salaries, not the typically low paying state jobs (and believe me, as a retired state worker I know all about that). They can't replace the factories in Charleston with office jobs anywhere close to fast enough to compensate for the difference, and you couldn't really compare high tech in Charleston with that in Morgantown, where more than 11,000 new jobs have been created in recent years.
Huntington used to be a nice town but not any more. It has lost its industrial base and that has really not been replaced by anything. I did read that they got a new factory with a couple hundred jobs associated, but that doesn't even come close to losses in the railroad industry and others.
I think my projection for Morgantown being the State's largest city within 15 years could be bourne out by extending the numbers. Charleston and Huntington are declining or static at best. Morgantown is having steady growth. Even if Charleston and Huntington don't lose any more the growth will overtake them, especially if the areas immediately adjacent to Morgantown, which are getting a lot of the construction, are brought into the city. Monongalia County alone will soon have 100,000 people not counting the students, and they aren't spread out over 40 miles in every direction like is the case with Kanawha. There is new construction out roads like Van Voorhis for thousands of people who will be working the new jobs in Morgantown and Fairmont, as well as the new federal prison being built in the Kingwood area and the new power plant in Monongalia County.
You can't go on the standard "Metropolitan Area" designations. Those areas are set up in an arbitrary manner and are not uniformly designated. The Charleston Metro Area, for example, includes all of Kanawha County (very large geographically) as well as some adjacent areas. The Northcentral region of the State (Morgantown-Fairmont-Clarksburg) are classified as three different metro areas but in reality encompass the same geographic area as the Charleston metro area. The total population and area is nearly identical. The difference is in the growth rates.
Now, you could properly make the statement that Charleston has some taller buildings. That is because the two towns are of a different character. Charleston is headquarters to a couple large banks, and for some reason they built a hotel there several years ago that went up in the air more than outward. In that sense it looks larger, and you are correct in that regard. But Morgantown really has more activity. They don't want any tall buildings there, and their planning boards will not approve them. They feel it would detract from the unique character of the city. The two cities serve totally different missions and the appearances bear that out.
You can also look at the downtowns of the cities. Morgantown's is vibrant and growing just like the rest of the area. We both know what has happened with Huntington's and Charleston's isn't doing all that much better according to what I have been reading. The downtown mall is on the decline and there is not a lot of new business activity to replace it. That is a scenario typical of similar small towns all over the State... Morgantown is just fortunate in that regard. When you go there for a football game, take some time to go downtown and see the activity.
You could also point to Marshall University as being part of the dynamic in Huntington but remember, most Marshall students are commuters while most WVU students reside there. That fact causes different results in the two cities.
Remember, you can't always judge a book by its cover so to speak. The nearest town of any size to me (Danbury, CT ... a small town of about 78,000 residents) doesn't have any tall buildings either. It is mostly a bedroom community for New York City, but it has a much larger population than Charleston. It also has more business activity and is much more active, especially after work hours.
Does anyone see a distinct variation of gender 'PMS with these blogs?
What is in effect in NorWV is the rapidity of growth here...absorbing the people as they enter the Mon Valley...that rate is about 8,500 to 10k per year...we can build that fast..if more people come we will see the big nail jobbers...Pultie and the rest..
If Mojo centers the gasification project here we will possibly not be able to handle the growth...as it stands now...every gas drilling company in the world is here and has us streached to the limit...with the coal/gas projects we will be adding another layer...It's like Oklahoma during the boom...but a new time.
Looking through the lens has always been our problem...backyard...community...town..state...for get about all that and look your region...
Huntington is not Huntington...It's Huntington-Ashland...(and almost C-town)
Morgantown is on the verge of being Morgantown-Pittsburgh...sooner than you think...
They only thing that saved C-town was the airport expansion...that will be temporary (20 years)...then Huntington will take over...It's the river...its the river....and the school. We are Marshall too...
Does anyone see a distinct variation of gender 'PMS with these blogs?
What is in effect in NorWV is the rapidity of growth here...absorbing the people as they enter the Mon Valley...that rate is about 8,500 to 10k per year...we can build that fast..if more people come we will see the big nail jobbers...Pultie and the rest..
If Mojo centers the gasification project here we will possibly not be able to handle the growth...as it stands now...every gas drilling company in the world is here and has us streached to the limit...with the coal/gas projects we will be adding another layer...It's like Oklahoma during the boom...but a new time.
Looking through the lens has always been our problem...backyard...community...town..state...for get about all that and look your region...
Huntington is not Huntington...It's Huntington-Ashland...(and almost C-town)
Morgantown is on the verge of being Morgantown-Pittsburgh...sooner than you think...
They only thing that saved C-town was the airport expansion...that will be temporary (20 years)...then Huntington will take over...It's the river...its the river....and the school. We are Marshall too...
I think in many ways you are correct. People in West Virginia, when they are talking with other West Virginians, tend to only talk about only the portion of their regions that lie within the confines of the State's boundaries. That is VERY misleading. Except for Charleston, the other cities are actually portions of much larger metro areas that include areas that are not in West Virginia.
I love West Virginia. Being a native, I know how wonderful are the people there. At the same time, being within the State has major disadvantages in terms of an area's development. It is the poorest state in the country, so resources are scarce. Those areas that have shown growth are doing so in spite of being within the State, not because of it. Morgantown's growth is in large part fueled by its proximity to Pittsburgh and the spin offs associated with the industries there.
WVU has grown and developed with minimal State participation. In fact, it is because the institution has figured out how to prosper with little in the way of State support that such amazing development has taken place. No school has ever really grown from a position of dependency, and that is the position in which other schools in the State find themselves. As long as they have the mindset that the State has to do it for them, that will not change.
Neighboring states have a more progressive and cooperative attitude than that found in the State. For that reason, they grow and develop more quickly. That is also the reason in the long run Huntington will overtake Charleston. And, it is the reason that ultimately Morgantown-Fairmont-Clarksburg and Martinsburg will overtake everything. Their proximities to major cities make all the difference. Even Wheeling will eventually rebound, it just won't do so with heavy industry as in the past.
As to the incessant bickering brought about by Marshall jealousy of WVU's development, they need to get over that. By trying to be WVU, they are hurting themselves in a major way. In higher education, especially in West Virginia, everything does NOT flow from the State. It takes place the other way around. The State can never make Marshall into a WVU. It can barely afford to provide assistance to the schools at all. Every new, underfunded program they start in Huntington takes away from what they already have in place there. Their professors are already among the lowest paid in the country, and spreading the resources even thinner only makes matters worse.
If that were not the case, then why has not significant growth accompanied the new program offerings? They would be MUCH further ahead to develop what they already have in place.
Look at what has taken place in recent years and you will get an idea of that which I am talking about. WVU has a nationally known athletic program, so Marshall just has to go to 1A status. In the process they move from a Championship level program at their natural level to an also ran. WVU develops from within a student recreation center... Marshall just has to have one. They can't afford one so someone else builds one and they commit to a long term lease. Same for new dormatories and now a new alumni center. I know these things because I am a Marshall alum and I see the damage the school is doing to itself with the "try to keep up with the Joneses" attitude.
Marshall does not have the potential to be WVU. It does not have the Federal Land Grant funding base and never will have it. The State can't afford to make it that kind of institution, they can barely help it be a regional school. And the region there will not have the impetus to push it to national level. Even with reduced tuition rates for neighboring states they are not growing. My contention is they are not growing because they are trying to be something they are not, and are dilluting the quality of what they have in the process. If they were to focus on their natural strengths and put their resources in those areas, the growth and development would take place. Their problem is some irrational bozo somewhere has convinved them they have to be the same as WVU.
That would be like someone at WVU convincing everyone there the school has to be like Harvard. It isn't going to happen. WVU can be a Penn State, but it can never be a Harvard. The intellectual focus in not in place anywhere in the Pittsburgh region for that to take place. WVU is growing because they have figured out that outside funding sources, not state funding sources, are the key to development and because the region in which they find themselves lends itself to supporting that development. It has absolutely nothing to do with any kind of irrational competition with Marshall, and never has. They'd be growing at the same rate with or without Marshall, and Marshall would be much further ahead to have a cooperative attitude with WVU than a competitive one. People like Bailey will never allow it to happen, so Marshall is likely to keep itself in the current rut for the forseeable future.
First off, glad you came back CT because I really didn't think that you would. Also, much better posts this time around because you actually made some good civil posts using your experience and opinions with some facts. I called your first post unintelligent because it came across as very inflammatory and arrogant in tone and to me, that is unintelligent. I've also read your negative posts on other forums as well and your distaste for MU comes across well in those posts, MU grad or not. I'm very aware that you didn't mention MU in your intial post and if you'll notice in mine, I said that your post was directed at MU. Never said you named it directly. And Marshall is more than a regional university. Having students from all 50 states and several different countries is more than a "regional" university. MU has one of the top Forensics programs in the nation and is the only university to have a certified human DNA lab. They have recently partnered with the state police to become the 2nd official state crime lab and they have encouraged WVU to do the same. The Marshall school of medicine is also one of the top med schools in the nation and was tied with the University of Flordia for producing the most family medicine doctors in the nation. Thanks to the growth at the Med school, Cabell Huntington has become one of the top orthopedics programs in the nation and the best in WV. The performing arts program also has national recognition and is one of the top 50 performing arts programs in the country. I hardly think a "regional" university could make those claims. And in terms of the deal they made with the company for the new dorms and rec center, how else are they supposed to grow since the state offers no money for such projects? This state does have the ability to support more than one great university but like many aspects of this state, they like to put all of their eggs in one basket. I earned my degree WVU so I'm well aware of their situation as well as MUs. I think the universities should work together more but anytime MU tries to grow, WVU does what it can to stomp it out for fear of competition. Look at their campain against the MU school of Medicine. Look at how they spoke out to stop the law school. MU isn't trying to be WVU, they are merely trying to grow.
In terms of this statement
"The reason for the big city feel that is not felt anywhere else in the State is the cultural events and activities associated with The University. There are literally plays (including broadway plays), concerts, athletic events, and endless groups with which to be associated as well educational opportunities not found elsewhere in the State. There are more top notch restaurants there, and more coming along."
You obviously haven't researched this statement. Huntington and Marshall together offer some wonderful cultural events. We have the largest art museum between Pittsburgh, Cincinatti and Richmond. The Keith Albee PAC hosts the Marshall artists series as well as other events on it's own. They frequently host broadway plays and are working to transform the play house so that it can offer first run braodway plays on a consistent basis. It's also the home to the Huntington Symphony Orchestra and all of the wonderful performances that they put one. Huntington, Charleston and Wheeling are the only WV cities to have their own orchestra. We also have the Huntington Civic Arena here which brings in national acts as well and also hosts other things like the circus, arts and craft fairs and antique shows. The restaurants here are varied and growing with a good mix of local and chain restaurants and some GREAT ethnic restaurants. And if you think Huntington's downtown is dying, you obviously haven't been here in awhile. Pullman Square has breathed new life into downtown and has been the state's only lifestyle center for the last 4 years. It's a 60 million dollar complex that offers a theater, comedy club, shopping, banking and restaurants, many of which are among the top in their chains. There is also a lot of redevelopment going on in most of the buildings downtown and many are being renovated and turned into condos for downtown living. The airport here is one of the few in the country to be experiencing growth and last year, was the fastest growing airport in the nation based on passenger increases. TTA, public transportation, has seen tremendous growth lately and has added services to the 2 surrounding states and is also getting ready to start service between Huntington and Charleston. The Huntington Mall is the largest in the state and I could go on. So although your post was better, it was still full of misinformation. I also find it funny that someone who lives in CT would try to compare the growth giong on in 2 WV cities. I live in Huntington so I see the growth first hand and my wife's family lives in Morgantown so I visit there frequently as well. Since you're out of state now, here are some links that you might like to see. Again, glad you came back and better posts this time around.
Tim
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All joking aside, I've never understood people trying to tear down another WV town or university and exaggerate things in an attempt to make their own town or university sound better. To give facts, experiences and opinions is one thing, but to post crap like that(what CTM posted) is ridiculous to say the least. Be proud of your area, show off its assets and defend it but remember that we're all part of the same state and we all benefit from the growth of the state as long as no misguided political workings get in the way (i.e. the new Fairmont exit or pulling funding from one area/entity to pay for pet projects
). This state needs to encourage growth and friendly competition rather than making people feel like they have to fight like dogs for the scraps left at the table. The people who brag like it would be a good thing for WV to have one large thriving city, university or anything need to get a life and realize what they are asking for. I want to see this state and all of it's cities grow and prosper and we can't get there with that kind of attitude.
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