Light Rail will save this town (Charleston, Huntington: hotels, live in, cost)

[boycewv]

Originally Posted by HandsUpThumbsDown

One should look hard at the actual and predicted demand for interstate tourism in wv before dumping really massive amounts of money into such a project. It takes a LOT of demand to justify the cost for these types of projects.

Yea, I think we are all thinking ahead, nothing is really viable right now as far as mass transport. On a smaller scale it would be nice to have a decent statewide bus system. For example I was thinking about taking a bus from morgantown to charleston and couldn't find anything. Although it probably wouldn't be profitable. I think we just need better roads, period.

[CTMountaineer]

Originally Posted by Chriscross309

Light rail no, commuter train between Huntington/Charleston would be perfect and would work.

There is insufficient population density in either location to make it work. They have a bus run now that has a couple dozen riders, and it is losing money. Busses are a lot cheaper to operate than would be a train, which has major capital outlays required, extensive maintenance issues, and lots of workers involved. They would need several hundred to be viable as a train service at the very least. We couldn't make it work in NCWV either without a major city such as Pittsburgh as an anchor. I lived for many years in an area with commuter rail and understand the mechanics. A run to and from a major city could work because it picks up passengers all the way along the line, and the density picks up as it gets closer to the city itself.

The Metro North Harlem Line, for example, starts in a rural area but it goes all the way through White Plains where a major portion of the passengers originate. If it just had to rely on the smaller towns, it wouldn't be viable.
The DC line to Martinsburg picks up passengers from many towns all the way into DC itself. You have to have a major city to make it work.

Now, I do believe it would be possible to have a line from Charleston serve as a feeder line to a line originating in Pittsburgh. That might well fly, and it would also serve a valuable service by providing public transport between Charleston and NCWV. It would also increase ridership on the Charleston to Huntington bus run if the timing were right for train departures. It would be similar to the Danbury, CT to Brewster, NY bus runs stopping at the Metro North train station. Danbury is also on the New Haven train line, but as a city of only 80,000 it is too small to support train service without the connection to NYC service.

The state should be pursuing two lines. One line in conjuction with PA from Fairmont to Pittsburgh via Waynesburg and Washington, and another line from Charleston to Fairmont that operates in the same Fairmont station and has arrival and departure times coordinated with the Pittsburgh train. PA should develop an alternate line from Pittsburgh along the Mon Valley then through Uniontown. This would have enormous potential for development along the entire corridor from Charleston to Pittsburgh, and by extension from Charleston to Huntington using bus service.

Our state government is so backward in operation and planning that it is nearly impossible to get from many parts of the state to Charleston without major side trips to a major city somewhere. Try getting to Charleston via bus from Morgantown, Wheeling, Weirton, or Martinsburg.

[HandsUpThumbsDown]

Originally Posted by boycewv

Yea, I think we are all thinking ahead, nothing is really viable right now as far as mass transport. On a smaller scale it would be nice to have a decent statewide bus system. For example I was thinking about taking a bus from morgantown to charleston and couldn't find anything. Although it probably wouldn't be profitable. I think we just need better roads, period.

That wouldn't be a bad idea (the bus). It would not be profitable (almost no public transportation systems are) but the economic benefits are found by keeping more money in the pockets of the riders (less money on fuel=more money to spend locally instead of to oil barons). Of course, states with high gas taxes (don't know WV's situation) want to keep that revenue stream coming and might not see public transportation as a benefit.

Transport can sort of be looked as an evolutionary system. Start with buses, and then if lines get congested or popular enough where light rail would be cost-efficient to run (lower operating costs than buses, way higher capital cost), then install.

How is the bus system in Morgantown? Except for Martinsburg, it's the only city in WV I've been to.

[Chriscross309]

Originally Posted by CTMountaineer

There is insufficient population density in either location to make it work. They have a bus run now that has a couple dozen riders, and it is losing money. Busses are a lot cheaper to operate than would be a train, which has major capital outlays required, extensive maintenance issues, and lots of workers involved. They would need several hundred to be viable as a train service at the very least. We couldn't make it work in NCWV either without a major city such as Pittsburgh as an anchor. I lived for many years in an area with commuter rail and understand the mechanics. A run to and from a major city could work because it picks up passengers all the way along the line, and the density picks up as it gets closer to the city itself.

The Metro North Harlem Line, for example, starts in a rural area but it goes all the way through White Plains where a major portion of the passengers originate. If it just had to rely on the smaller towns, it wouldn't be viable.
The DC line to Martinsburg picks up passengers from many towns all the way into DC itself. You have to have a major city to make it work.

Now, I do believe it would be possible to have a line from Charleston serve as a feeder line to a line originating in Pittsburgh. That might well fly, and it would also serve a valuable service by providing public transport between Charleston and NCWV. It would also increase ridership on the Charleston to Huntington bus run if the timing were right for train departures. It would be similar to the Danbury, CT to Brewster, NY bus runs stopping at the Metro North train station. Danbury is also on the New Haven train line, but as a city of only 80,000 it is too small to support train service without the connection to NYC service.

The state should be pursuing two lines. One line in conjuction with PA from Fairmont to Pittsburgh via Waynesburg and Washington, and another line from Charleston to Fairmont that operates in the same Fairmont station and has arrival and departure times coordinated with the Pittsburgh train. PA should develop an alternate line from Pittsburgh along the Mon Valley then through Uniontown. This would have enormous potential for development along the entire corridor from Charleston to Pittsburgh, and by extension from Charleston to Huntington using bus service.

Our state government is so backward in operation and planning that it is nearly impossible to get from many parts of the state to Charleston without major side trips to a major city somewhere. Try getting to Charleston via bus from Morgantown, Wheeling, Weirton, or Martinsburg.

The bus between Huntington/Charleston is at capacity and it is losing money because of greedy local politics. And you are supporting a train that runs from Pittsburgh to Charleston through the middle of nowhere and is very far, over a small commuter train that runs on an existing track, between the state's two largest metros?

This is not a far fetched idea, but one they've been working to secure for a while now. They would not build any new rail, they would just need a train (electric would work), a few small stations in South Charleston, Saint Albans, Teays Valley, Hurricane, Milton, Barborsville, and then a few upgrades to the Charleston and Huntington stations. This would solve heavy traffic problems on 64, would open up the two cities more to locals, and would be ideal for Charleston workers that live in the suburbs.

[mattec]

Originally Posted by Chriscross309

This is not a far fetched idea, but one they've been working to secure for a while now. They would not build any new rail, they would just need a train (electric would work), a few small stations in South Charleston, Saint Albans, Teays Valley, Hurricane, Milton, Barborsville, and then a few upgrades to the Charleston and Huntington stations. This would solve heavy traffic problems on 64, would open up the two cities more to locals, and would be ideal for Charleston workers that live in the suburbs.

If they were to pursue something like this, they'd have to get permission from CSX or Norfolk So. or whoever owns the track to lease from them and build stations, even then, their trains would get priority, thus slowing the service down.

Then, if they would want electric, they'd need to get permission to upgrade the track and then pay for it.

Finally, the costs (both up front and maintenance) for even this fairly modest proposal would far too astronomical to be considered realistic for the area.

[cry_havoc]

Originally Posted by HandsUpThumbsDown

That wouldn't be a bad idea (the bus). It would not be profitable (almost no public transportation systems are) but the economic benefits are found by keeping more money in the pockets of the riders (less money on fuel=more money to spend locally instead of to oil barons). Of course, states with high gas taxes (don't know WV's situation) want to keep that revenue stream coming and might not see public transportation as a benefit.

Transport can sort of be looked as an evolutionary system. Start with buses, and then if lines get congested or popular enough where light rail would be cost-efficient to run (lower operating costs than buses, way higher capital cost), then install.

How is the bus system in Morgantown? Except for Martinsburg, it's the only city in WV I've been to.

It has the highest ridership, and is considered the best bus system in WV. Like most US bus systems it is kinda outdated.

[HandsUpThumbsDown]

Originally Posted by Chriscross309

This is not a far fetched idea, but one they've been working to secure for a while now. They would not build any new rail, they would just need a train (electric would work), a few small stations in South Charleston, Saint Albans, Teays Valley, Hurricane, Milton, Barborsville, and then a few upgrades to the Charleston and Huntington stations. This would solve heavy traffic problems on 64, would open up the two cities more to locals, and would be ideal for Charleston workers that live in the suburbs.

Looking at the map (while not knowing a thing about the demand) that could be a good line. One question: If the track exists, how straight is it? If the train can't get past 75 mph or so, and it will take 90+ minutes to get from origin to destination, then most people will want to drive I think.

[HandsUpThumbsDown]

Originally Posted by mattec

If they were to pursue something like this, they'd have to get permission from CSX or Norfolk So. or whoever owns the track to lease from them and build stations, even then, their trains would get priority, thus slowing the service down.

Then, if they would want electric, they'd need to get permission to upgrade the track and then pay for it.

Finally, the costs (both up front and maintenance) for even this fairly modest proposal would far too astronomical to be considered realistic for the area.

I worry this would be like the CSX Martinsburg line, which lazily meanders for over 2 hours to get to DC with occasional interruptions for freight traffic. That's too long, no matter what the housing cost is in Jefferson County.

Is I-64 at capacity? Maybe express buses with a reversable bus lane are a good solution. They are very popular in some places in the west coast.

Freeway stops and park and rides could be placed for the towns along the highway.

An new electric interurban line would be ideal for the distance, but cost prohibitive.

[CTMountaineer]

Originally Posted by Chriscross309

The bus between Huntington/Charleston is at capacity and it is losing money because of greedy local politics. And you are supporting a train that runs from Pittsburgh to Charleston through the middle of nowhere and is very far, over a small commuter train that runs on an existing track, between the state's two largest metros?

This is not a far fetched idea, but one they've been working to secure for a while now. They would not build any new rail, they would just need a train (electric would work), a few small stations in South Charleston, Saint Albans, Teays Valley, Hurricane, Milton, Barborsville, and then a few upgrades to the Charleston and Huntington stations. This would solve heavy traffic problems on 64, would open up the two cities more to locals, and would be ideal for Charleston workers that live in the suburbs.

Chris, no offense there young man but have you ever lived in an area where they have commuter train travel? I lived and worked in such an area for many years. Believe me, the two towns you are talking about would not support such a venture. And, you say I'm supporting a train from Charleston "through the middle of nowhere"? That is absolutely correct.
First there is absolutely nothing for 133 miles north of Charleston. Secondly, that is not the issue. The issue is the direct connection to a train line involving a major city. That is absolutely necessary for a commuter rail.
The reason it might work connecting through here is because it would bring travelers who need connections not only to here but more importantly to Pittsburgh. In fact, it could provide a much needed connection for Charleston and by extension Huntington to a large area.

The bus from Charleston to Huntington (according to what I've read) has approximately 24 daily riders who pay greatly reduced fares due to an unstable Federal subsidy. That is not the way a commuter rail would operate. You'd be paying possibly $15 for a one way ticket and $25 for a round trip. In addition, any commuter rail I ever saw operated in and around a city with massive traffic issues in the hub city. I know you spend a lot more time in Charleston than me, but I've been there many times and never once had trouble getting through the town. Same with Huntington. There are no parking issues in either town either (that is a major issue in big cities).
Commuter lines are large scale operations involving many workers in direct service as well as maintenance of rails and equipment, plus the administrative (office) function. It isn't like just hiring a bus driver for the local bus company.

I'm not trying to rain on your parade. I don't think it would work here either unless it went to and from Pittsburgh. Then it would work due to the passenger traffic associated with that city. By the way, commuter rails are energy efficient, but slow. The number of stops involved take a lot of time.
You wouldn't be making the trip to Huntington in an hour. The relatively few that do make that commute wouldn't want to be taking 3 to 4 hours daily getting back and forth to work when there is little trouble doing it by car.

[Chriscross309]

Originally Posted by CTMountaineer

Chris, no offense there young man but have you ever lived in an area where they have commuter train travel? I lived and worked in such an area for many years. Believe me, the two towns you are talking about would not support such a venture. And, you say I'm supporting a train from Charleston "through the middle of nowhere"? That is absolutely correct.
First there is absolutely nothing for 133 miles north of Charleston. Secondly, that is not the issue. The issue is the direct connection to a train line involving a major city. That is absolutely necessary for a commuter rail.
The reason it might work connecting through here is because it would bring travelers who need connections not only to here but more importantly to Pittsburgh. In fact, it could provide a much needed connection for Charleston and by extension Huntington to a large area.

The bus from Charleston to Huntington (according to what I've read) has approximately 24 daily riders who pay greatly reduced fares due to an unstable Federal subsidy. That is not the way a commuter rail would operate. You'd be paying possibly $15 for a one way ticket and $25 for a round trip. In addition, any commuter rail I ever saw operated in and around a city with massive traffic issues in the hub city. I know you spend a lot more time in Charleston than me, but I've been there many times and never once had trouble getting through the town. Same with Huntington. There are no parking issues in either town either (that is a major issue in big cities).
Commuter lines are large scale operations involving many workers in direct service as well as maintenance of rails and equipment, plus the administrative (office) function. It isn't like just hiring a bus driver for the local bus company.

I'm not trying to rain on your parade. I don't think it would work here either unless it went to and from Pittsburgh. Then it would work due to the passenger traffic associated with that city. By the way, commuter rails are energy efficient, but slow. The number of stops involved take a lot of time.
You wouldn't be making the trip to Huntington in an hour. The relatively few that do make that commute wouldn't want to be taking 3 to 4 hours daily getting back and forth to work when there is little trouble doing it by car.

An electric train setup, with a few relatively primative trail stops isn't by any stretch of the imaginaton a "large scale operation". I would most likely be one train that runs the length of the two cities, picking up people along the way. Then when it got to the end of the line it would just go the other way. No turn around, no problem. The train would be powered by an overhead wire, which would be the most expensive thing, but not that big of a deal in comparison to costs of the PRT. Locals could have a pass that allows then to pay a small fee that covers them for a year. And 3-4 hours to make the trip??? You have got to be kidding, it would be almost the smae time period, while there wouldn't be traffic to account for.

Putnam County people could avoid rush hour traffic, and easily reach there destination, while saving on gas movey. They would park at the train stop, then skim into the city on the train. It Would encourage new development near train stations, that could boost business and walking communities. It Would connect the two cities together, and create a single united metro area that would work together to improve infrastructure, business growth, population, and transportation networks. Kind of like a small scale Dallas/Fort Worth, or Minneapolis/St. Paul.

Would be seen as "green" and more people might ditch there cars saving both money and gas. It could Encourage shopping, dining, entertainment, and cultural activities among the two cities, and would help boost events and local sports like the Power and Marshall. Students at Marshall, WVSU, and UC that commute could live away from campus and have access to the rail service for classes. I could see this working real well because most commuter students that go to Marshall live in Kanawha or Putnam, and same with State. This would encourage growth in the local universities. And the line would encourage people without cars to travel throughout the metro area. Making life easier, and healthcare, shopping, school, and entertainment less of a problem.

There are cities alot smaller than Charleston that use methods like this, and most of them aren't as spread out. You always nag about how big Charleston's metro is, and that it shouldn't include ceratain areas and populations because to you they are too far away to be realted. Well the truth is that they are, and a train could help bring the center focous back to Charleston and Huntington. The two cities are pretty much connected by development anyways, and the whole area combined including Ashland and Ironton is almost 700k. According to the US Census 2010, in a 100 mile radius of Putnam County (center of metro area) there is 1.2 million people.