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Old 01-15-2010, 08:43 AM
 
4,714 posts, read 11,728,358 times
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That Party with the Middle Class thinking? That old 'Silent Majority???

They are about to speak next Wednesday in Kennedyburg in a big way.

They are called the Independant Party...

I hope it makes the USA news...but keep the www. blogs handy...

That sacred 'Kennedy Senatorial Seat is going to someone of a different policitical religion...
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Old 01-15-2010, 09:10 AM
 
297 posts, read 918,781 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiger Beer View Post
I LIKE a lot of what you to say...your main points are very strong, very interesting...so many things to like about it.

I'm kind of still trying to figure out WV political thinking myself..

One, I gotta say, there are a lot of illegals in the U.S. Tons. However, I am unsure how much they collectively take from us. I mean, as an American (who is currently living abroad), but back when I was living in the States...it was pretty difficult finding a job that gave health insurance. So, I haven't went to the doctor in 20 years in the U.S. - I have abroad though, because it's a small fraction of the cost.

So, I wonder, illegals certainly aren't getting health insurance...what are they getting? Seems to me they just get low paying jobs and that's about it....they wouldn't qualify for anything else.

Am I wrong about this this? (I'm ONLY speaking from a financial perspective, not a social ills/social problems one).

If anything, it is all of the Section 8 vouchers and everything else that more Americans have a preference for...as well as all of the social giveaway programs...a whole heap of problems there. None of the illegals would get any of this...they seem to be the only ones working when you are in cities like NYC and such and see a person still manning the store.
What are they taking from us? Well, according to Western Union, they wire american dollars out of our economy to the tune of 12 Billion- 20 Billion per year. That's money that should be supporting American businesses, so that they can offer decent wages and healthcare. It's Mexico's , biggest source of income, or one of the biggest, I don't remember exactly. how do they do it?
Working in manufacturing in Ca. for many years, I have seen and known many of them personally. Over the years They have developed a fine-tuned machine like-system (unofficial and underground, of course) of bringing folks in and working the "official" system. And the government caters to them with job training, legal assistance , whatever it takes to replace you with a lower wage worker, they will do.
Due to the skill level of my job, I survived many years even with all the outsourcing and layoffs, but not without changing jobs, and even cities, many times. I have seen what goes on. Many years ago, it was harder to come here illegally and their were lots of raids and deportation. The illegals were grateful for the work, and so polite and nice, you had to love them. Then the U.S. decided to look the other way, (cough..ahem.. ronald reagan) and it all changed. They would hound the supervisors to hire their friends and family, promising that they would work for lower pay and would work hard. The senior workers covered for the new ones, and train them until they can hold their own.
They will bring pregnant women in and sit them down in front of a machine that they clearly don't know how to operate, and the other workers will cover for her until she has a baby. Some of them actually go back to Mexico after that, and receive a check in the mail every month. The children get medical coverage that would make congress jealous, and many decide to stay and work while still getting welfare. Not so hard with fake social security cards.
While everyone thinks they are scrubbing floors and picking produce, they are now doing the construction jobs, the welding, the machining, the work average americans once did. The problem with that is, many average americans can no longer find work.
It's not all their fault, it's our system that's failing. Really we do need them to some extent, but we need a system and we need to enforce the laws.
That's my 2 pesos.
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Old 01-15-2010, 09:18 AM
 
Location: Macao
15,712 posts, read 34,776,436 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citybilly View Post
What are they taking from us? Well, according to Western Union, they wire american dollars out of our economy to the tune of 12 Billion- 20 Billion per year. That's money that should be supporting American businesses, so that they can offer decent wages and healthcare. It's Mexico's , biggest source of income, or one of the biggest, I don't remember exactly. how do they do it?
Working in manufacturing in Ca. for many years, I have seen and known many of them personally. Over the years They have developed a fine-tuned machine like-system (unofficial and underground, of course) of bringing folks in and working the "official" system. And the government caters to them with job training, legal assistance , whatever it takes to replace you with a lower wage worker, they will do.
Due to the skill level of my job, I survived many years even with all the outsourcing and layoffs, but not without changing jobs, and even cities, many times. I have seen what goes on. Many years ago, it was harder to come here illegally and their were lots of raids and deportation. The illegals were grateful for the work, and so polite and nice, you had to love them. Then the U.S. decided to look the other way, (cough..ahem.. ronald reagan) and it all changed. They would hound the supervisors to hire their friends and family, promising that they would work for lower pay and would work hard. The senior workers covered for the new ones, and train them until they can hold their own.
They will bring pregnant women in and sit them down in front of a machine that they clearly don't know how to operate, and the other workers will cover for her until she has a baby. Some of them actually go back to Mexico after that, and receive a check in the mail every month. The children get medical coverage that would make congress jealous, and many decide to stay and work while still getting welfare. Not so hard with fake social security cards.
While everyone thinks they are scrubbing floors and picking produce, they are now doing the construction jobs, the welding, the machining, the work average americans once did. The problem with that is, many average americans can no longer find work.
It's not all their fault, it's our system that's failing. Really we do need them to some extent, but we need a system and we need to enforce the laws.
That's my 2 pesos.
Well-said....I certainly have to agree. I also like that you attributed it to Ronald Reagon...a breath of fresh air that someone sees that.

Again, I'm so jaded by partisan politics of the 'blame Democrats, Republicans are perfect' tone of current politics...it's great to see blame distributed equally so that it can be dealt with collectively.
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Old 01-16-2010, 02:15 AM
 
Location: Elkins, WV
1,981 posts, read 5,229,515 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citybilly View Post
You remind me of myself at college age. After a lifetime of experience, I side more with Harborlady now. I don't have the answers, just more data to process. But the fact that you even care about these issues is important. There is some truth in every point of view, and that keeps the engine running. Maybe there's hope for the future.
My biggest concern right now is more with the rampant lawless reign of terror down on our border. Drug gangs are seizing power from local governments by use of terror and intimidation. They are popular with young people and becoming quite powerful. We hear very little of it here, as though it were some remote, far away issue. It's closer than we think, i'm sure. Let's just hope that a powerful, and smart, leader doesn't rise up out of that mess. Could we handle a Saddam or Hitler right in our own back yard? We are so vulnerable to drugs, what's to stop him? Just say no??.........
Most illegals don't come here with a criminal intent, but refusing the gangs would mean losing a family member back home.
How do we handle these issues without being racist or unjust? I don't know, that's for you younger people to figure out.... Good luck.
Yeah, from what I've experienced it's a double standard. A lot of older people ARE blown away that a 23 year old actually knows about politics and issues. But the moment I disagree with something they say or believe in... "well I'm just too young and stupid." , "You'll learn when you get older". It's this mentality that causes a lot of problems, and perhaps why others my age and generation don't care about these issues. Because they're always told that their ideas, views, and opinions don't matter or we are too young to understand. Our opinion matters just as much as any 50, 60, 70 year old. All of our votes are equal, and as we saw in this last national election, younger people are starting to care more and more about politics.

With that being said... could the Americans who are glued to FOX please calm down... your lord and savior Palin is coming to the rescue... ha ha ha ha
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Old 01-16-2010, 02:18 AM
 
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Well said Cody...gave you points for that!
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Old 01-16-2010, 03:52 PM
 
529 posts, read 920,243 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GottaHerdOn View Post
Yeah, from what I've experienced it's a double standard. A lot of older people ARE blown away that a 23 year old actually knows about politics and issues. But the moment I disagree with something they say or believe in... "well I'm just too young and stupid." , "You'll learn when you get older". It's this mentality that causes a lot of problems, and perhaps why others my age and generation don't care about these issues. Because they're always told that their ideas, views, and opinions don't matter or we are too young to understand. Our opinion matters just as much as any 50, 60, 70 year old. All of our votes are equal, and as we saw in this last national election, younger people are starting to care more and more about politics.

With that being said... could the Americans who are glued to FOX please calm down... your lord and savior Palin is coming to the rescue... ha ha ha ha
And now from the older side of the fence when I don't agree with someone younger I'm old and out of touch.

Most of the young people I know are politically attuned. They definitely drove the last election.
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Old 01-16-2010, 05:39 PM
 
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I hope those younger people begin to care...they will be paying the bill for this present fiscal insanity.
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Old 01-16-2010, 10:09 PM
 
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I hope they think and search for facts. I was talking to some people who didn't know when the bank bailout happened.
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Old 01-16-2010, 10:41 PM
 
Location: Macao
15,712 posts, read 34,776,436 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Kennedy View Post
I hope those younger people begin to care...they will be paying the bill for this present fiscal insanity.
Not just them, but the entire country.

I find it interesting that the same people who don't want money going to school teachers, but will quickly support the immense costs of sustaining two wars in two countries and the immensity of financial costs that requires.

The costs of manufacturing weaponry, practicing it and training with it, moving it around the world, and on and on. Don't get me wrong, I support the troops immensily. But the government is just plain fiscally irresponsible for it, and we're all paying for it financially as a country.

Actually my cousin is an officer (and have other friends and family involved and wearing uniforms), but the stuff my cousin shoots up on a semi-daily basis...while it sounds really cool and all, I can't help but think that just what he spends alone in jet fuel and weaponry blowing stuff up on a daily basis might financially be better elsewhere for the country. He's NOT in the Middle East even, he's out in the Rocky Mountain region. (Anyways, speaking on a FINANCIAL perspective).

I have heard the argument that by gaining all of those rights to the oil in Iraq, it'll eventually pay for itself...but destroying another country to get it's oil also reeks of a moralistic quandry. Is it morally acceptable to destroy another nation to get it's resources so our corporations can profit and somehow get the money back to us that is squandered over there via war?

(None of this is directed at you by the way, you seem like a real interesting person, I'm just throwing questions out there in general for discussion - since we're on the topic of fiscal responsibilty and our country's lack thereof).
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Old 01-17-2010, 12:19 AM
 
11,961 posts, read 12,451,079 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiger Beer View Post
So, I wonder, illegals certainly aren't getting health insurance...what are they getting? Seems to me they just get low paying jobs and that's about it....they wouldn't qualify for anything else.
They certainly do qualify for gov't programs whether they're working or not. Off the books in underground economy (no taxes, no rules, no standards) work for poverty wages, and supplement their income with a variety of govt programs. Nearly free health care is one of them. As DK pointed out, it's a vicious cycle because it severely undercuts competitive biz that pay its employees a decent wage & offers health care at often large expense to business and employee alike. Then they have to cut everyones pay to match their competitors low bid, or layoffs, or... ask the entire rust belt about their exported jobs. Some companies cut out the americans AND illegal immigrants and move their company to mexico, retaining america as customer only, no more symbiotic relationship. Work visas are available for legal immigrants/ migrant workers who don't mean to forfeit their native citizenship. Those visitors pay taxes and register by the same rules as the rest of the country. There is no excuse for illegal, and especially not tacit/ overt gov't endorsement of illegal.

My addition to DK's statement is that the middle class is being abused unmercifully, the monkey in the middle of two primary benefactors-- extreme wealth exploiting extreme poverty, followed by their govt who universally endorses their unholy alliance through taxation/ policy. The two parties failing to represent middle class first by charging middle class the premium for wealthy arrangements, then EXCLUDES middle class from any benefit because they aren't poor enough to qualify for ANYTHING (yet). So the only way to qualify for help is downward spiral... be that extreme poverty. Go bankrupt. Cost of living increases and no wages going up for decades now means more and more people will qualify for poverty status, and typical budget balancing only means they'll officially move the poverty line lower to exclude more. The reality would be an impoverished majority. Historically that gets solved on Bastille day. You do not want to be an American on that day.

Middle class has been going extinct economically for decades. Use 1950's as benchmark for optimal health of middle class, and you might see my suppositions more clearly. They're working harder, more hours, less leisure time, for less pay steadily since then. Work ethics are taking a beating right along with the middle class. Reaganomics appeared to be a boon but yielded a greater divide between haves and have nots. Blue states who bought into reaganomics had horrific buyers remorse, and perhaps now America as a whole bailing out wall street can see why reaganomics doesn't work. Bottom line I worked harder in 80's for less pay relative to less work for more pay in 50's. Upwardly mobile was an illusion of epic proportions, but the belief that it was real did motivate people to work harder for less very very well. The demise of community spirit went along with that economic plan.

When illegals are viewed from the perspective of being (technically voluntary, but under duress) plantation slaves, the impact of everyones quality of life is exponentially harmed on every level. Except for illegals and wealthy, of course. Neither have obliged themselves to the general welfare of America as a sovereign nation or for the greater good of anyone but themselves. They're both vultures, and the 2 party monopoly is in service to vultures.

DK I don't get why anyone has a problem with Kennedy as a family. They served us well, and their dedication was appreciated by me. Times change, and parties have to as well. RIP Ted. He worked damn hard. We as a nation have to work both harder and smarter now. Parties that can't evolve will RIP with Ted and Reagan. Dems are changing. R's have to or else. Neither have changed fast enough for my taste when you consider I haven't had a party of my own for 30 yrs but there's a latent potential in our midst.

The change you can believe in, "yes we can", includes all people and all poli parties saying-- this is the change I WANT. Don't be bashful with your President by failing to petition your government.
I hear WV gets frustrated, then resigns to despair. I hear many say it never changes, there is no better outcome. How can things change until you change your mind about any change? hahahaaa Strange how the complaints of no change are the things people in this state most closely guard (tighter than a scottsmans purse I'll add!). It's my tumor, and I'll kill anyone trying to take it away!
I went 3rd party because when stuck between a rock and a hard place, the 3rd option is logical. Seems that logic is catching on in America, and glad to see it. Now if it can only grow up is the problem. So you and city billy and I aren't off the hook so easy, no retirement. GHO isn't in this alone, even if his gov't tells him he can be an army of one all by his lonesome self. roflmao
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