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Unread 12-22-2009, 08:32 AM
 
404 posts, read 543,826 times
Reputation: 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTMountaineer View Post
What, facts scare you? That's not surprising. They scare most liberal nazis. I actually get most of my "news" from public television. It has a liberal bias too, but is slightly more objective than the flat out socialist mouthpieces known as "mainstream media". I suppliment it with Fox about twice per week so I can at least be exposed to alternative viewpoints. But my views on socialized medicine have nothing to do with Fox or American Public Television. They have to do with facts. 87% of American citizens are perfectly content with the current system and see no reason to lessen it.

There are actually ways it could be improved. They could drastically modify tort laws, for example, and greatly reduce cost by doing so but that would cut into their special interest money so that ain't going to happen. Instead, they seek to do so by reducing coverage for seniors with the ultimate goal of reducing everyone to a single payer system. Rationing, waiting lists, and denials are inevitable. Just check how it has worked, or rather failed to work, in every other country. That's why Canadians by the thousands come here to get medical procedures not available to them in their own country, or available only after months of risky waiting.
Once again.. I'm calling on a moderator to clean up this guy's filth... Seriously, how many hand slaps does it take to figure out to take your crap to a political forum? This would not be tolerated on other sub-forums, but thanks to the low amount of traffic here, you and DK manage to ruin EVERY SINGLE THREAD!

 
Unread 12-22-2009, 09:09 AM
Status: "Okay. This is the one I meant to post." (set 13 days ago)
 
5,892 posts, read 4,021,260 times
Reputation: 779
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesco White View Post
Once again.. I'm calling on a moderator to clean up this guy's filth... Seriously, how many hand slaps does it take to figure out to take your crap to a political forum? This would not be tolerated on other sub-forums, but thanks to the low amount of traffic here, you and DK manage to ruin EVERY SINGLE THREAD!
The whole thread was political, and I didn't start it. But to a socialist, anything that is an alternative viewpoint is typically viewed in a negative light because they have to rely on "feelings" to counter facts and it doesn't work very well. I know it's frustrating, but it's one of the bad aspects of feel good positions. Sometimes people who think instead of feel actually question your beliefs.

"this guy" isn't doing anything you guy hasn't been doing. He just happens to have an alternative viewpoint. Sorry if you can't handle it, but I've put up with your illogical and irrational verbage time and again without complaint.

Last edited by CTMountaineer; 12-22-2009 at 09:33 AM..
 
Unread 12-22-2009, 09:41 AM
 
Location: Lost in Montana *recalculating*...
3,870 posts, read 6,437,231 times
Reputation: 2470
Putting Liberal vs. Neocon emotions aside, I've witnessed many, and I mean MOST of my commercial clients, especially those with small businesses and in the trades, eliminate health insurance for their employees and themselves due to the ungodly cost.

Hell- I could barely afford my premium using all the tools available to me (HSA's, high deductible, HMO, etc). My monthly health care expenditures for a family of 4 cost damn near what my mortgage cost.

I don't know where 87% 'content' comes from, but in my observations (real world) work it's the opposite- 87% or more not content. It's cost prohibitive, due to a lot of factors, and it certainly does warrant some 'fixing'. Status quo gets us nowhere.

Here: http://www.nsba.biz/docs/09hcr_survey.pdf

89% of small businesses cannot offer health care insurance. 89%

Look at the survey from the National Small Business Association. The majority agree something needs to be done, but the majority also don't agree with employer mandates. I may not like gov't invlovement, but the medical and insurance industries don't seem to be able to get this fixed and it's the endusers being left out (or ultimately the tax payers or remaining insured footing the bill anyway

Unfortunately 'Physician heal thyself' ain't gonna happen in the industry.

Last edited by Threerun; 12-22-2009 at 10:57 AM..
 
Unread 12-22-2009, 10:20 AM
Status: "Okay. This is the one I meant to post." (set 13 days ago)
 
5,892 posts, read 4,021,260 times
Reputation: 779
Quote:
Originally Posted by Threerun View Post
Putting Liberal vs. Neocon emotions aside, I've witnessed many, and I mean MOST of my commercial clients, especially those with small businesses and in the trades, eliminate health insurance for their employees and themselves due to the ungodly cost.

Hell- I could barely afford my premium using all the tools available to me (HSA's, high deductible, HMO, etc). My monthly health care expenditures for a family of 4 cost damn near what my mortgage cost.

I don't know where 87% 'content' comes from, but in my observations (real world) work it's the opposite- 87% or more not content. It's cost prohibitive, due to a lot of factors, and it certainly does warrant some 'fixing'. Status quo gets us nowhere.

Here: http://www.nsba.biz/docs/09hcr_survey.pdf

89% of small businesses cannot offer health care insurance. 89%

Look at the survey from the National Small Business Association. The majority agree something needs to be done, but the majority also don't agree with employer mandates. I may not like gov't invlovement, but the medical and insurance industries don't seem to be able to get this fixed and it's the endusers being left out (or ultimately the tax payers or remaining insured fotting the bill anyway

Unfortunately 'Physician heal thyself' ain't gonna happen in the industry.
I don't think anyone disagrees that the system needs fixing. The problem is they are doing all the wrong things, and none of the rights with their fix it attempt. The major impetus behind cost factors are the tort laws, major lawsuits that force health care providers to buy liability insurance that runs in the hundreds of thousands of dollars per year and also require them to run highly questionable medical tests just to protect themselves from liability. Put a $50,000 limit on medical tort and you could eliminate 35% of the cost of insurance right off the bat. The problem is the Dems get major contributions from the tort attorney special interest group and they won't touch that problem with a 50 foot pole.

They could also simply provide medicaid to the 10% of the American citizen population that can't afford adequate coverage without disrupting the whole system, taking earned benefits from senior citizens, or reducing everyone to lowest common denominator coverage. I think most, including conservatives could live with such a solution. But they, in their typical elitist fashion, are trying to ramrod a program down everyone's throats even though most don't want it. It is beyond bizzarre. I can understand your frustration with medical cost factors. But, they need to actually attack the costs... not put my grandson in debt for a likely failed concept.
 
Unread 12-22-2009, 10:35 AM
 
Location: Western Pennsylvania
2,363 posts, read 4,018,088 times
Reputation: 698
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTMountaineer View Post

They could also simply provide medicaid to the 10% of the American citizen population that can't afford adequate coverage without disrupting the whole system, taking earned benefits from senior citizens, or reducing everyone to lowest common denominator coverage. I think most, including conservatives could live with such a solution.
Indeed. My biggest objection to the current "solution" is that it makes wholesale changes to a system which is currently working for 80-90% of the population. Fix the part that's broke, leave the rest alone.
 
Unread 12-22-2009, 11:10 AM
 
Location: Lost in Montana *recalculating*...
3,870 posts, read 6,437,231 times
Reputation: 2470
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTMountaineer View Post
They could also simply provide medicaid to the 10% of the American citizen population that can't afford adequate coverage without disrupting the whole system, taking earned benefits from senior citizens, or reducing everyone to lowest common denominator coverage. I think most, including conservatives could live with such a solution. But they, in their typical elitist fashion, are trying to ramrod a program down everyone's throats even though most don't want it. It is beyond bizzarre. I can understand your frustration with medical cost factors. But, they need to actually attack the costs... not put my grandson in debt for a likely failed concept.
10% that cannot afford it? That number is truly conservative, lol.

I've seen a lot of Profit and Loss statements in my day and witnessed the rapid exclusion of insurance year after year. The number is greater than 10%, much greater.

And no offense, but the conservative wing of the republican party has offered little solution to the matter, in fact they largely ignored it over the past 8 years, sans the HSA and other tax deferred goodies doled out. I pay no credence to their rhetoric in the matter. We know who butters their bread, *cough-cough* insurance industries *cough-cough*..

Let the liberals feel altruistic. At least something might pass, imperfect and intolerable as it may be, then as usual with anything Congress does we'll have to go back in and tweak the crap out of it.

Hell, if anything maybe a centrist position will emerge and actually get it right...

(WTF am I THINKING )
 
Unread 12-22-2009, 11:29 AM
 
Location: Lost in Montana *recalculating*...
3,870 posts, read 6,437,231 times
Reputation: 2470
Oh and BTW- I've been following NSBA's push for health care reform for years, and they had some very, very sound proposals. In 2004 they released a broad list of ideas, including tort reform and a system of medical courts to handle that end of the 'expense'.

You can find it on their site. Very constructive and not bent to the left (or far right).
 
Unread 12-22-2009, 11:29 AM
 
Location: Arlington, VA
1,048 posts, read 2,258,989 times
Reputation: 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by Threerun View Post
10% that cannot afford it? That number is truly conservative, lol.

I've seen a lot of Profit and Loss statements in my day and witnessed the rapid exclusion of insurance year after year. The number is greater than 10%, much greater.

And no offense, but the conservative wing of the republican party has offered little solution to the matter, in fact they largely ignored it over the past 8 years, sans the HSA and other tax deferred goodies doled out. I pay no credence to their rhetoric in the matter. We know who butters their bread, *cough-cough* insurance industries *cough-cough*..

Let the liberals feel altruistic. At least something might pass, imperfect and intolerable as it may be, then as usual with anything Congress does we'll have to go back in and tweak the crap out of it.

Hell, if anything maybe a centrist position will emerge and actually get it right...

(WTF am I THINKING )
Yeah that 10% figure does seem rather conservative (no pun intended).

I would also like to see a link to stats where 87% of Americans are satisfied with their healthcare coverage.

And yes many Democrats have links to tort attorneys...how is that any different from many Republicans taking big handouts from the insurance industry? And spare me with the poor doctors having to pay for malpractice insurance. They're in a risky profession, so they need to deal with it. I'm all for making good money but they shouldn't expect the general public to cry for them about high insurance costs. How many doctors do you know that bring home less than $250,000 (after paying for office expenses) a year in private practice? We have many doctor family friends back in Charleston and even in a suit happy, high insurance premium state like West Virginia I can't even think of one that is living below upper-middle class. Emphasis on below the UPPER part of the upper-middle class.

Last edited by NOVAmtneer82; 12-22-2009 at 11:44 AM..
 
Unread 12-22-2009, 12:05 PM
 
Location: Lost in Montana *recalculating*...
3,870 posts, read 6,437,231 times
Reputation: 2470
Well we've had problems in this state with fleeing physicians and there have been quite a number of articles evidencing some practices losing doctors due to high insurance costs.

One of our neighbors is a physician and his wife is an allergist. They are, at least in my eyes, middle class. However they are both really, really grounded and just fantastic folks, so I donít think they want to live any other way.

Hell- he even hangs out with an upper-lower class, middle aged, no-class person like me.
 
Unread 12-22-2009, 12:27 PM
Status: "Okay. This is the one I meant to post." (set 13 days ago)
 
5,892 posts, read 4,021,260 times
Reputation: 779
Quote:
Originally Posted by Threerun View Post
10% that cannot afford it? That number is truly conservative, lol.

I've seen a lot of Profit and Loss statements in my day and witnessed the rapid exclusion of insurance year after year. The number is greater than 10%, much greater.

And no offense, but the conservative wing of the republican party has offered little solution to the matter, in fact they largely ignored it over the past 8 years, sans the HSA and other tax deferred goodies doled out. I pay no credence to their rhetoric in the matter. We know who butters their bread, *cough-cough* insurance industries *cough-cough*..

Let the liberals feel altruistic. At least something might pass, imperfect and intolerable as it may be, then as usual with anything Congress does we'll have to go back in and tweak the crap out of it.

Hell, if anything maybe a centrist position will emerge and actually get it right...

(WTF am I THINKING )
The Republicans are just as culpable of special interest crap as the Democrate, and are dominated by the same elitist corps of special interest appeasing reprobates. I don't disagree with you about that. My point is, the Democrat approach solves nothing, does not address the real problems, and creates problems for future generations and current and future senior citizens. It merely caters to their particular special interest groups. Altruism is fine, but making decisions based on altruistic "feelings" is just the kind of thing that is a sure recipe for disaster. This is NOT a well thought out approach.
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