Westchester v. NJ (Essex and Bergen Co.) (Port Washington, Ridge: real estate, credit)

[gshanemiller]

Hi, I'm looking to move my family into NJ or NY from Richmond, VA. I will be working in Manhattan. The cost of housing difference between Richmond (below national average) to NJ/NY still gives me pause.

My wife and I have done fairly thorough research on Westchester in terms of narrowing down property tax rates, total $ spent per kid in various villages within Westchester, average SAT scores, and so forth. We've included Port Washington too as the only non-Westchester town.

Because of Westchester's expense we're hoping NJ is more competitive. We're looking to do the same sort of research in Essex and Bergen County for these towns: Millburn, Ridgewood, Park Ridge, and GlenRock with additions/removals to come as experience dictates.

I'm happy to exchange my Westchester information with those who can provide me with missing data for NJ. I'm willing to spend time on the phone too exchanging experiences at looking at houses --- we've seen around 30+ houses throughout Westchester and around eight in Port Washington. We're scheduled to see 8-10 in NJ next weekend.

Things that are difficult to come by:
* property tax rates: it's virtually impossible to find hard numbers and yet this is the first question new comers have. I have some numbers for Westchester and hints on numbers for NJ both based on county/state documents. Without such data one is forced to jump from one rabbit hole to the next as a Realtor shows you a single MLS sheet with est. tax data. Perspective house buyers want to exclude (include) vast swaths of the state based on property tax outliers. After all, time is money.

Things that are difficult to reconcile:
* It's common knowledge that Washington DC spends the most amount of dollars per child in public schools. If memory serves this figure is at about $12000/pupil/year. Meanwhile I received several articles on schools in Westchester and similar data for Port Washington NY which suggests their public schools spend $14-23K/pupil/year. Of this about $7-12K/pupil/year is spent putting a teacher in front of kids. If true, Washington DC isn't even close to the highest. Putting aside the whys and wherefores and ignoring for the moment that money alone cannot solve all education problems, do these Westchester numbers sound right? By comparison NJ Essex and Bergen counties spend about $7K/pupil/year putting a teacher in front of kids i.e. about half of what Westchester does. Even more amazing is what Westchester spends on special education kids --- such as my youngest son: Westchester spends between $21-50K/pupil/year on simply putting teachers/specialists/therapists in front of special education students. My Westchester data is based on NY state education data.

* True or false: In Westchester preschool is free.

* True or false: If one lives in NJ but works in NY then one must pay NY state income taxes and all NJ state income taxes are effectively zeroed through a NJ state credit. That is, a NJ resident effectively pays no/zero NJ state taxes and pays NY state taxes of approximately 7%.

Based on my experience so far Westchester provides better schools. I've spoken with several Westchester school people about enrolling my kids and dealing with my special education needs. Westchester representatives were actually helpful, informative, and didn't throw up 21 million barriers to getting service. They came across as actually interested in getting results with the least amount of hassle. Westchester has done the most work in the most ways to provide me with specific data on schools in terms of dollars spent, grades earned, Regent's passed, and so forth.

NJ housing seems lower. The taxes seems lower. But not that much lower. I still need to research it out. Based on the numbers I have Westchester outspends NJ Essex and Bergen counties 2:1 for only marginally higher property taxes. And NJ presents far more obstacles in dealing with special education and would require me to pay for preschool.

Port Washington has the same nice schools as Westchester, however, I don't think one's housing dollars go as far there. There's less room for recovery. That is, if Port Washington turned out not to be a nice fit, surrounding areas are even more costly. In West Chester one can find a house in the $700-850K range almost anywhere without worrying about a precipitous drop in education quality. One only has to avoid the high tax districts like BriarCliff.

Comments/questions/rebuttals? Post away.

[xamsx]

Originally Posted by gshanemiller

Things that are difficult to come by:
* property tax rates: it's virtually impossible to find hard numbers and yet this is the first question new comers have. I have some numbers for Westchester and hints on numbers for NJ both based on county/state documents. Without such data one is forced to jump from one rabbit hole to the next as a Realtor shows you a single MLS sheet with est. tax data. Perspective house buyers want to exclude (include) vast swaths of the state based on property tax outliers. After all, time is money.

* True or false: If one lives in NJ but works in NY then one must pay NY state income taxes and all NJ state income taxes are effectively zeroed through a NJ state credit. That is, a NJ resident effectively pays no/zero NJ state taxes and pays NY state taxes of approximately 7%.

You will get better responses in the NJ forum concerning NJ but I will relay my experiences:

In NJ it was nearly impossible to figure out accurate real estate taxes when we were home shopping. We had the realtor show us the formula for tax rates, and it was complicated. We were looking in the $750K range in Essex county and were told the taxes would be "around" $25K - $30K and we'd find out exactly what our property taxes were after we purchased. We expanded our search into Middlesex where the news wasn't much better. The property cost in Westchester was higher, but the taxes were lower. It was to be a trade-off.

If you live in NJ and work in Manhattan you pay NYS income tax. Your NJ income tax will be investment dividends, interest, etc.

[VA Yankee]

gshanemiller I am from NY just over the border from NJ and now live outside Richmond VA. On a few things you said, you mention dollars spent per student, In our area Richmond City spends the most per student but look at the facilities/results. This may not be the best guage for a school system. You mentioned SPED needs you might want to take your childs current IEP (if applicable) or educational requirements so you can compare apples to apples, see how each system says they can satisfy them.

For property taxes the system is completely different. Henrico, Hanover, Chesterfield are incorporated counties. One tax rate county wide. In Ny/Nj the taxes will depend on the township/city you live in. For example if Hanover was up north Mechanicsville would be a Township, within it would be the town, villages, hamlets of Studley, Cold Harber, Atlee etc. Your Taxes, school district, police etc would be set by the Township of Mechanicsville. There can be many such entities depending on the counties size. For getting a feel of the cost find out the total "cost per thousand" rate, Henrico is like $8.70 per thousand for everthing (property, schools, etc) in Ny/Nj these may be seperate so found out then all you do is multiply the appraised value by the dollar per thousand amount and that should give you an idea of the taxes. My mom lives in Rockland County across from Westchester her town can only taxes 1/3 of the assessed value but the school tax is flat rate. With 25% senior discount she pays $6000+ a year. Over $3000 is school tax alone. My guess is $8000+ a year without the senior discount.

Make your realtor find out the specifics for you. Good luck on your hunt.